What's the next step?

[doc2b]

Completely saw this coming

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MI

Well, this is no surprise. My husband emailed the kids' mom about summer vacation plans, and this is how it went:

From: Dad
To: Mom
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 11:44:45 PM
Subject: Summer Vacation


Mom-

We will be using June 19-26, 2009 for our summer vacation time. We would like to use a couple of extra of your days in that vacation time to add on to it. We'd like to start on June 15, 2009 instead. We would, of course, be willing to give you the same couple of days to add to your summer vacation.

Dad

_____________________________________________________

From: Dad
To: Mom
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 10:11:45 AM
Subject: Fw: Summer Vacation


Mom-

I hadn't heard back from you about summer vacation, so I was hoping you would still consider what I'm asking. I was hoping that I could keep the kids Sunday night and leave early Monday morning (June 15), returning Friday or Saturday (June 26 or 27). We are going to be taking the kids to visit Gramma and Grandpa at their new house in Colorado, and it's a two or three day drive in each direction. If I only had 7 days, there would only be a couple days left to visit once you account for traveling. If there was more time to work with, we'd be able to visit with the family a little more and I was hoping to be able to take a couple of days while we're out there to take the kids to Yellowstone Park. With this schedule, I'd be taking 6 of your nights and 8 of mine, and would give you the same in return (8 of my overnights for you to use for vacation instead of 4...that would give you the opportunity to have the kids up to 18 consecutive days if you use them all at once).

I would like to start trying to coordinate plans with the family and getting stuff booked for travel, if you could please get back to me as soon as possible.

Thanks,
Dad

______________________________________________________________


From: Mom
To: Dad
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 11:29:11 AM
Subject: Re: Summer Vacation


Dad

Again, you are assuming those days are available to take. You can not just demand the time you want. I will respond once we have the parenting time issues resolved in court, as changes might be made. As far as I know right now, the dates that I will be requesting are July 16-19th.

Mom

_________________________________________________________________


From: Dad
To: Mom
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:21:09 PM
Subject: Re: Summer Vacation


Mom-

As of right now, there is no stipulation in the court order that states either of us are required to get permission from the other parent for summer vacation time, nor does it state how much notice we must give. These are things that will be addressed in court, but at the moment summer vacation is not subject to the terms you are asking approval for-the current court order still rules. I am not demanding time, I am giving you notice of the time I intend to exercise as my summer vacation. We are both entitled, per the current court order, to choose 7 overnights for our summer vacation. You have never had to ask me for permission to take vacation time.

"It is further ordered that each party may choose seven (7) non-consecutive overnights with the children during the Summer. However, Plaintiff may not exercise more than three (3) overnights during parenting time earmarked for Defendant, and Defendant may not exercise more than four (4) overnights during parenting time earmarked for Plaintiff."

This is the third year in a row you have tried to dictate the terms of the summer vacation time without anything in the court order to back it up. If the terms are changed when we get to court, then so be it. Until then, I am letting you know that I will be taking my summer vacation time from June 19th through the 26th, as stated before. If you would be willing to allow the extra time, as I requested, I will return the extra days to you for summer vacation days to be used at your discretion. If not, the dates are as mentioned above. You have not given notice to me that you were planning on using any of these days for your vacation time, or anything else for that matter. If either of us have something important and unchangeable planned over the summer, we shouldn't plan our vacation to overlap it-just out of common courtesy. But you have not made any mention whatsoever of any plans over the summer, so those days are available. It sounds as if you are simply trying to pick a fight over this (again) for no good reason.

With regards to the dates you are choosing for your vacation, I will mark those in my calendar. If anything changes, please let me know. You still have one vacation day left (in case you forgot that Sunday doesn't count as one of the four).

Thanks,
Dad

(Just as a reminder of the same issues you've had with trying to dictate when I can take my time the last two years...)


From: Mom
To: Dad
Date: Sunday, March 11, 2007 11:13:33 PM
Subject: Re:
ok, I just need to check it with my sister and i will let you know tomorrow. I am aware that you planned a vacation without consulting me on the days. I have not agreed to those day tho. I won't agree because again i have family that would like to see them. If you go it will go before the friend of the court. I did call them on friday and they said i can even set up a hearing before you go. You can not just plan MY days we have to agree to them just like my vacation days in the summer i have to ask you when it is ok. So if you have planned weekends please let me know so I can make arrangements around your plans. Thanks


----- Original Message ----
From: Mom
To: Dad
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: Summer vacation
Dad I will be using Aug 20th for a vacation day. Also, you know you are taking more days than allowed. You do not just get my day time hours (on the days you have overnights). Mom

_______________________________________________________________

From: Mom
To: Dad
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 01:46:12 PM
Subject: Re: Summer Vacation

Dad,

There is a difference. You are planning 4 months ahead of time. I haven't even gave summer vacation much thought. We are planning a brownie trip after school gets out. I am not trying to dictate anything. I'm just un aware of when exactly we are going, that is out of my control. In the past I have always ASKED you if the dates are available, you just simply dictate when you are going and do not even consider if I have something planned or not. It's the same, I'll take what I want mentality I've always dealt with, with you.

Mom

So, the issue is not that she won't agree to the extra days...we'll have to work around that, I guess.

The issue is, basically, she thinks she can tell him that he can't plan his vacation until she makes sure she doesn't have anything better going on. Is this total BS or are my husband and I missing something in the terms of the court order? This happens every year...she always finds a reason to try to say no to the time he needs, make up a reason that he can't take it after he sends her notice, then threatens court.

She want to plan a *optional* trip for stepdaughter's Brownies...that's great, and all, and if it's on dad's time, he's all for taking her or letting mom take her to that stuff if he has to work. But does something like that trump a vacation to visit Gramma and Grandpa? Especially when it's for the whole family, not just one member?

They have mediation set for April 9th, but husband is going to decline mediation and go straight to the referee (basically because of past issues with her during mediation). Who knows how long before the court date actually is set after that...I'm assuming, in the mean time, it's okay to make plans as if nothing has changed, and if they do they can deal with it after the final order is signed.

Some perspective please? Is he approaching this wrong (myself, included, because I totally agree with him on this)? Thanks!

 

[wileybunch]

I sorta understand Mom's POV because she plans to plan a Brownie trip and hasn't done it yet so she's afraid to commit the kids elsewhere. But, what she doesn't understand is that unless she HAS plans for them, then she does not and that's that. Dad has first dibs since he asked for the time.

I think Dad's going to have to work out another approach to this through the court if Mom won't work this out since this is recurring and Mom will always have a summer of not knowing what she wants to do in advance and Dad will always be waiting for the other shoe to drop to make plans.

 

[doc2b]

I sorta understand Mom's POV because she plans to plan a Brownie trip and hasn't done it yet so she's afraid to commit the kids elsewhere. But, what she doesn't understand is that unless she HAS plans for them, then she does not and that's that. Dad has first dibs since he asked for the time.

I think Dad's going to have to work out another approach to this through the court if Mom won't work this out since this is recurring and Mom will always have a summer of not knowing what she wants to do in advance and Dad will always be waiting for the other shoe to drop to make plans.

Thanks for the response, Wiley.

I do understand Mom's POV to a point (with regards to the Brownie trip), but this is an every year thing-it's always something that she *thinks* she may plan, and it *may* be during the same time as what dad is wanting so he can't have it.

What she wants the courts to approve, verbatim from her response:

The Plaintiff and Defendant shall have 7 days of summer vacation. They can be used consecutively or non-consecutively. Any amount of hours used as regular parenting time shall be included in the 7 days of vacation.

Notice to exercise summer vacation shall be given in writing within 30 days of said request, unless worked out between both parties and cannot conflict with any other scheduled events

This just sets it up for her to deny his time.

Husband motioned the court to change the summer vacation to:
-14 days used consecutively or non-consecutively, not to be broken up into more than 2 separate chunks
-30 days notice to exercise summer vacation time, using common sense and common courtesy as not to overlap with plans that the other parent has already given you notice of, within reason.
-Vacation cannot be utilized over the 4th of July holiday or the Labor day holiday, unless it is by the parent assigned that holiday for the year or if agreed upon by the parties. Also, mom cannot utilize Father's Day for one of her vacation days over the summer.
-Parties shall not require each others permission to plan summer vacation time.


Does any of that sound unreasonable? She doesn't agree with any of it. (Except the 30 day notice, which she usually doesn't give that much).

 

[wileybunch]

Does any of that sound unreasonable?

No, not at all.

I wouldn't include this verbatim language, though, "using common sense and common courtesy as not to overlap with plans that the other parent has already given you notice of, within reason"

Just use language that basically says whoever asks for the days first gets them since that's objective/measurable (whereas "common sense" and "common courtesy" are not).

ETA: Sorry, I don't know your DH's time-share arrangement off hand ... what kind of custody does Dad have? Is he considered the NCP? If so, you might use something like this language that's pretty common, more or less:

SUMMER VACATION

Notice of Dates. Prior to May 1, (or pick a date) the nonresidential parent shall select and notify in writing the residential parent of the dates of the summer parenting time periods. If the nonresidential parent fails to provide such written notice prior to May 1, (or pick a date) the residential parent shall be entitled to designate those periods, so long as they include the nonresidential parent's holiday time, by notifying the nonresidential parent in writing by May 20. (or pick a date) In the event that a parent has the child(ren) for more than nineteen (19) (or pick a #) consecutive days, the other parent shall have the right to have the child(ren) on the third (?) weekend after the commencement of the extended parenting time.

 

[doc2b]

No, not at all.

I wouldn't include this verbatim language, though, "using common sense and common courtesy as not to overlap with plans that the other parent has already given you notice of, within reason"

Just use language that basically says whoever asks for the days first gets them since that's objective/measurable (whereas "common sense" and "common courtesy" are not).

Oh, no...that was my language
His verbatim language is drawn from the Michigan Parenting Plan guidelines and other resources he found, so it's more professional. I'm just not that good with words...or being objective, I guess

 

[wileybunch]

Oh, no...that was my language
His verbatim language is drawn from the Michigan Parenting Plan guidelines and other resources he found, so it's more professional. I'm just not that good with words...or being objective, I guess

Then he's in good shape.

 

[doc2b]

Couple quick questions...

1) Does dad need mom's permission to keep the kids out of the first half of the school day for "Take your daughters and sons to work day" next month? During the summer, the daytime hours would be hers, but since it's a school day, would it be considered taking them during her time? He already got the ok from the teachers, but didn't need to know if he needed to ask her or not.

2) From all the reading through forums, I found that in joint legal situations, both parents must agree to counseling for the kids or else it needs to be approved by the court. What happens in the case that they've agreed to get the kids into counseling (multiple times), but every attempt that dad makes to schedule an appointment/request a counselor/get mom involved in the process, she doesn't respond or insists that she always be the one to make the appointments, but refuses to ever do it? Does he still need to get court approval in that case, or is the email correspondence showing that they both agree to the counseling enough to take the next step and get the kids an appointment with someone they can talk to?

It's getting to the point that their teachers are concerned about their emotional (and physical in the case of stepdaughter) health and are recommending some counseling, and both of the kiddos are trying to engage dad in conversations about how they feel about mom's behavior and how she is treating them, but he doesn't know how to respond or what's appropriate (he wants them to have an outlet and someone to talk to, but from what it sounds like according to other posts I've read, he shouldn't be the one discussing it with them).

Thanks again for any advice!