When are kids too old for day care

[jbachom]

When are kids too old for day care-Ex wife lies about Day care

What is the name of your state? Ohio

I have been paying child support for 7 years now and a large portion of the support order has been for day care. Everytime there has been a court hearing or a CSEA hearing she can never prove that she consistently pays for daycare. She will say that she pays sometimes but not consistently and the court continues to give her money for daycare. About six months ago she reqeusted a three year modifcation and did not send any receipts in. I received a reduction and she objected. At the hearing, she brought a letter from her boyfriends mom stating that if she recieved an increase that she would promise to pay $150.per week. The hearing officer once again took her word for it. The end result though was that there was no change in the order. The end result then is that she did not get the increase and I guess she is still not paying.

Here is my concern, the oldest child will be 13 in January the next is 10 and the third is nine. How old do the kids have to be to stay at home alone in the morning and after school for about an hour to an hour and a half. I am tired of providing money to pay for daycare that she just keeps when realy they are home alone for a short period of time. In my opinion,she is manipulating the worksheet to increase the order.

 

[I AM ALWAYS LIABLE]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

My response:

That depends. If at least one of the day care workers is 18, has big boobs, and likes to play around, then I'd say 19 years of age.

I know I had a day care worker who looked like Gina Lolabrigita when I was a kid, and I wished I could have stayed there forever! But, Mom took me out when I turned 13 because I was starting to get "frisky" with the woman.

IAAL

 

[BelizeBreeze]

How old do children need to be for daycare?

Hell, if they're republican daycare should be ongoing until they kick the bucket, are discovered taking bribes or become Democrat

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Ohio doesn't have any specific law to determine the age when a child is mature enough to stay home alone. Here is a link which cites several codes (Neglect) which must be considered when leaving alone.
http://www.clelaw.lib.oh.us/Public/Misc/FAQs/Home_Alone.html
the following Ohio statutes: ORC 2919.22 Child Endangering and Ohio Revised Code Chapter 2151, especially ORC 2151.03, which defines child neglect.

Here are some suggested guidlines: http://www.co.lucas.oh.us/LCCS/alone.asp

Now having been the eldest of 3 siblings and being responsible for the younger 2 at age 11, it is a challenge to say the least, but that was during the summer when it was full time, it all depends on the children whether on not shorter times alone are succesful. The main point is to not appear to be neglectful or the children getting into trouble, this requires planning and structure. Yours are still on the young side.

 

[Grace_Adler]

There are several things that need to be looked at like rmet said. Plus you have to figure how mature the kids are to be left alone, etc. Most daycares won't take kids over the age of 12. However, depending on the child, they still may need some caretaker to supervise them.

 

[Soontobedivorce]

I would not leave

nine and ten years old alone, I have kids those ages, they are immature to get ready to go to school by themselves in mornings...I have to get up early and get them ready to go to school. So, yeah they need supervisors!!!
They even get in fights if left alone too long. Really you can't leave 13 years old in charge of younger kids too long...

I would allow my 16 years old daughter babysit for maybe three or four hours and that is long enough. She can't handle babysitting hyper little kids all day and night if I leave them alone together, if I have to be gone all day and nite, Imust have a babysitter for them all...

It really depends on the kids. Maybe after your youngest kid turns to be like 12 or 13 okay as long as they get ready to go tos chool by themselves.

 

[jbachom]

When are kids too old for daycare

I appreciate some of the candid responses but really this is quite frustrating. I guess the big issue I have is that she keeps promising to pay but never does. Over the last 7 years I have probably paid over $10,000 for daycare that she has pocketed. The last time we were in court my attorney filed a motion for reinbursment of the previous three years that I paid that she kept instead of paying her boyfriends parents like she said she would. The problem is that the court never ruled on the issue. Oh I also forgot to mention that she has another child with her boyfriend. I think that she will keep telling the court she is going to pay until he is old enough to stay at home.

Anyway any other advice will be helpful. Any known caselaw would also be appreciated.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Most case law is going to focus on failures of leaving children at home alone eg, neglect, that is not the point you are looking to prove, or is it? If you want to prove that your children are old enough to be left home alone without child care or supervision you will have to prove that case on it's merits. You may want to persue a contempt, if you have proof that she is not actually providing the daycare as claimed. Subponea copies of cancelled checks to the childcare provider, not just receipts. This will involve more than you claiming that the boyfriend's mother is not watching them, in other words you will need proof like viedo of the children coming home alone or not coming home from school when they are being supervised by the other adult, police reports regarding the children's neglect. Have there been any instances of the police being called? Have your children gotten into fights whilst left alone? Have you seen copies of their medical files for emergency visits? These may provide some proof. Mot likely unless there is somehting extraordinary, you will end up paying for childcare for a few more years.

 

[jbachom]

When are kids too old for daycare

Thanks for all the info. The problem though and maybe I did not state this clearly is that she has another child that is not in school yet. Her boyfriends parents do watch that child all day at her and her boyfriends house. When the kids come home then yes they are there and they do watch them for about an hour or so. The thing though is she does not pay them. Four years ago during a modification request she once again admitted that the first three years she rarely paid. The courts believed her when she said she would start paying. Earlier this year she requested a three year modification hearing and had no proof of paying anything the previous three years. She promised once again she would start paying them and they awarded her $150.00 a week. I do not believe she has or ever will pay them. In effect then she is simply lying on the worksheet to get an extra $3,000 a year out of me in child support. I am hoping that the next time we go to court or have a hearing that my attorney can say that she has never paid and never will plus the kids are old enough not to need care anylonger.

I do think they are old enough to not require supervision before and after school but maybe not all day during the summer time. I would be fine with having just a summer time order but I know she will continue to pocket the money. Oh and do not think that the extra money goes to the kids. In the last three years she has flown back to the Phillipines by herself and spent a month there as well as taken four vacations to Florida and Virginia Beach.

I am just very frustrated that I am financing her vacations and luxery life stye by her continued lies to the court. My current wife and I would also like to take a vacation every once in a while.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

The children are being supervised. If the court won't ask for reciepts there is little you can do.

Does the childcare provider know there is $150 p/wk that they are not receiving? They can sue in small claims court, at least there is proof they are supposed to be paid.

If they have an agreement between them essentially the childcare provider is gifting the money back.

Technically the money earned for childcare is taxable income, is the childcare provider declaring the money?

$3,000 is not enough to pay for a trip to the Philipines or 3 other trips in one year, still your children are too young to be unsupervised, truat me.

 

[Soontobedivorce]

Nine years old IS NOT old enough to be unsupervised before school starts, I would be so surprised if those kids young enough can get up o their own get ready to go to school by themselves. Very rarely that would happen. I watched a neighbor who always left two kids alone ages 14 and 6//They were ALWAYS late for school and this boy aged 6 always wore raggedy shorts in freezing weather. I gave them rides to school several times after I drop my own kids to school and come home and saw them miss their bus so I had to go back to school to drop them off too and it was not fair to them to be late for school. So, even 14 yrs old CAN NOT be ready for himself along with 6 years old. So, i suspect that they DO HAVE supervisor to help get kids to go to school...

 

[jbachom]

Ok, maybe I still am not making this clear. The trips were over the past two years so $6,000 is plenty. As far as being supervised, her live in boyfriend's parents (who are retired) of 5 years arrive at the house prior to her going to work. They watch her other child all day at her house. My children are being watched by them before and after school for about an hour each time.

The problem is the court system continues to allow her to simply promise to pay them which she never does. Because of this I am paying for daycare and she is not only keeping my share but not paying her share as well. The courts seem to keep letting her manipulate the worksheet by claiming this money that she has no intention of actually paying. The end result then is she is fraudulently increasing her child support order.

My hope is that if we ever go back(which I am sure we will) that if once again she can not prove she is paying, that my attorney can argue once again that she does not and will not pay for daycare regardless if she says she will and a second argument is that they are too old anyway for daycare.

A previous post mentioned some links that I checked out and based on their criteria, I do believe that for an hour or so my kids could take care of themselves, even though realisticly they will still be supervised. Being a product of a divorce myself, kids learn to grow up faster when their parents split up.

I am just very frustrated that the system in place in Ohio does not play fair. At the last hearing she simply brought a note from her boyfriend's parents stating that she will start paying them if she got an increase. She did not receive an increase so I know that once again she is pocketing money that is not hers. It belongs to her boyfriends parents. If she paid them I would not be writing this thread. It just pisses me off that she is manipulating the system to increase her order so she can continue to live the lifestyle that caused our divorce in the first place meanwhile my new family lives paycheck to paycheck driving two 7 year old cars.

 

[LdiJ]

Ok, maybe I still am not making this clear. The trips were over the past two years so $6,000 is plenty. As far as being supervised, her live in boyfriend's parents (who are retired) of 5 years arrive at the house prior to her going to work. They watch her other child all day at her house. My children are being watched by them before and after school for about an hour each time.

No, 6000.00 is not plenty. You stated that she spent a month in the Phillipines...that alone would have eaten up most if not all of the 6000.00...let alone the other trips. Have you ever traveled overseas?

The problem is the court system continues to allow her to simply promise to pay them which she never does. Because of this I am paying for daycare and she is not only keeping my share but not paying her share as well. The courts seem to keep letting her manipulate the worksheet by claiming this money that she has no intention of actually paying. The end result then is she is fraudulently increasing her child support order.

The bottom line is that you don't have any real idea if she is paying them or not. You are assuming that she isn't paying them...but you honestly don't KNOW that.

My hope is that if we ever go back(which I am sure we will) that if once again she can not prove she is paying, that my attorney can argue once again that she does not and will not pay for daycare regardless if she says she will and a second argument is that they are too old anyway for daycare.

I truly don't believe that you would ever get a judge to agree that your children are old enough to not need daycare. In my state it wouldn't even be LEGAL.

A previous post mentioned some links that I checked out and based on their criteria, I do believe that for an hour or so my kids could take care of themselves, even though realisticly they will still be supervised. Being a product of a divorce myself, kids learn to grow up faster when their parents split up.

Children may learn to grow up faster being products of divorce, but that doesn't mean that kids that young should be unsupervised...and that it what you are arguing. You know they will be supervised anyway but that doesn't change the argument that you would be making to the judge. Plus again, it may not be possible to prove that the caregivers aren't being paid.

Also, the care is being given in the children's home....by your own admission this has been going on for more than three years. Its pretty unrealistic to think that two people are going to give up that much of their time, for that long, without any kind of compensation. If they were doing it in THEIR home, it would make more sense....but if they are doing it in HER home without compensation then these people are literally SAINTS and you should be thankful that your children have such unselfish caregivers.

 

[Soontobedivorce]

How doy ou know

she does not pay boyfriend's parents to babysit the kids every morning? I am glad that at least someone is there to send them off to school for it is really realastic that they can not send themsevles to school.

Do you have any proof that she does not pay them?

 

[jbachom]

Yes I do have proof she does not pay them. The proof is that when we went to court three years ago, in her deposition she admitted she NEVER paid for daycare the previous three years. That means the portion of my child support that was for daycare she kept plus she did not pay her share. She then promised the court that she would start if they would still include it in the current order. Guess what, three years later we had modification review from the CSEA where she once again admitted she did not pay for daycare. She stated in the past, occasionally she would give her boyfriend's parents 20 or 30 dollars but never the $150.00 per week she promised which was used to calculate the support order. Once again they believed her when she promised to start paying and once again I am paying for daycare that she is keeping. Do I have proof that she now is not paying, no but lets think about it she did not pay the last six plus years like she promised so why would she start now. At the modification hearing, there was no change in circumstances so she did not get the increase she so desperately desired. I think she was ready to trade in her 2 year old van for one of those 2005 models.

As far as the comment about her boyfriend's parents being there. I think it is great they are willing to come to her and her boyfriends house. But they do so not for my kids but for her other child which is their grandchild. It just so happens that my kids do reap the benefit of having them there as well. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. She keeps lying to the court promising to pay them and the court continues to believe her and awards her money that SHE DOES NOT PAY THEM. SHE KEEPS IT FOR HER SELF. SHE HAS ADMITTED THE PAST TWO TIMES THAT SHE KEEPS IT BUT CONTINUES TO PROMISE TO PAY. The court continues to take a blind eye to the situation and awards her the $150.00 per week for daycare. She is manipulating the worksheet to increase her order. I dont know how I can state that any clearer.

Since the courts in Ohio apparently feel sorry for her and allow her to manipulate the worksheet I need to figure out another way to prove my side of the story which is YES THEY ARE BEING WATCHED BUT SHE DOES NOT PAY THEM LIKE SHE IS PROMISING TO. Maybe if I can argue that the short period of time they are home alone before and after school is short enough for them to not require supervision if her boyfriend's parents were not in the picture. Thus no daycare should be awarded based on lack of proof she is paying plus the kids really do not need supervison for an hour or so before and after school.

As far as the other comment. Yes I have been overseas, that is how I met her. When I was there about $150.00 a month could support and entire family. So yes, $6,000 is ample to fly over and back and spend a month. Plus I did not mean for everyone to think that it was soley the daycare money that was paying her way. It just helped an awful lot, meanwhile my current wife and child have had one three day get away which we spent about $300.00 in the last 5 years. Tell me how that is fair.