Do they expect a attorney to take a case for only $250?

[adjusterjack]

Actually real attorney has told me the law means $250 per hour. So I remained confused.

the legislature has identified in that statute the maximum rate that an attorney fee can be awarded on a per hourly basis.

That's not what the statute says.

Call him back and ask him why he is reading something into the statute that isn't there. Ask for a citation of an appellate case that supports his interpretation.

When someone claims that a statute says something it doesn't say, the burden is on him to prove it by citing appellate case decisions that interpret the statutes.

Appellate and Supreme courts are the final arbiters of what a statute is saying.

And they will interpret a statute based on its plain wording.

There is nothing plainer than:

"reasonable attorney fees not to exceed $250"

I agree that it's absurd and it's possible that an appellate court could also find it absurd, but I haven't found such a case decision in my search for one.

@Taxing Matters would you please weigh in on this. Thanks.

 

[quincy]

... $250 sounds like a per hour amount to me not a total amount that an attorney would charge someone to win a case. I did ask an attorney online and they told me that was $250 per hour. So its not really obvious what is the truth here. ...

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median hourly wage for attorneys in Utah in 2022 was $54.64 (mean hourly wage was $64.39).

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_ut.htm

I think many people believe that attorneys earn far more than they do. Nationally, however, the 2022 annual median wage for attorneys was $135,740. That is for all lawyers, however, and lawyer rates vary significantly depending on the lawyer’s area of practice. Both the legal specialty and the geographical area where practicing affects attorney rates of pay.

And, of course, when compared to the national minimum wage of $7.25 per hour (which is also Utah’s minimum wage), $54.64 can seem a pretty attractive hourly wage.

 

[Zigner]

I suspect our OP presented the question differently elsewhere in order to get a different answer.

 

[quincy]

I suspect our OP presented the question differently elsewhere in order to get a different answer.

... or didn’t pose the question to a real attorney at all. The answer ApplePhone quoted was an AI-generated response.

 

[ApplePhone]

I suspect our OP presented the question differently elsewhere in order to get a different answer.

I think I just copied and pasted the same question as its written on here.

The question I asked on the other forum

"
Does this mean per hour or in total? " reasonable attorney fees not to exceed $250" Do they mean $250 to win an entire case?

The Civil Trespassing law in Utah said " reasonable attorney fees not to exceed $250"

Does this mean just $250 for an attorney to complete an entire case or do they mean $250 per hour attorney fees?

If they are saying only $250, no attorney is going to reasonable charge that little for an entire case. I am hoping they mean $250 per hour.

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter6/76-6-S206.3.html

(4) In addition to an order for restitution under Section 77-38b-205, an actor who commits any violation of Subsection (2) may also be liable for:
(a) statutory damages in the amount of three times the value of damages resulting from the violation of Subsection (2) or $500, whichever is greater;
(b) reasonable attorney fees not to exceed $250; and
(c) court costs.

Thanks.
"

So there was no leading the witness or whatever you are suggestion. The question was asked as clear as I know how and even quoted the law with a link.

 

[ApplePhone]

... or didn’t pose the question to a real attorney at all. The answer ApplePhone quoted was an AI-generated response.

It was on a legal help website and it said it came from a real attorney. The attorney even had 5 out of 5 stars from the users, and 10 out of 10 ratings from the website itself.

 

[quincy]

It was on a legal help website and it said it came from a real attorney. ...

I saw your question. It was posted on Avvo and the note above the answer next to the name of the “real attorney” said the answer was AI-generated. AI answers should not be trusted.

I see that the attorney has not responded to your follow up questions. Ask him (or his AI helper) to explain exactly when and where “the legislature has identified in that statute the maximum rate that an attorney fee can be awarded on a per hourly basis.”

 

[adjusterjack]

Troll alert.

Stop feeding the troll.

 

[quincy]

Here is a link to the Utah Rules of Civil Procedure, Rule 73, on Attorney Fees:

https://casetext.com/rule/utah-court-rules/utah-rules-of-civil-procedure/part-ix-attorneys/rule-73-attorney-fees

 

[ApplePhone]

I saw your question. It was posted on Avvo and the note above the answer next to the name of the “real attorney” said the answer was AI-generated. AI answers should not be trusted.

I see that the attorney has not responded to your follow up questions. Ask him (or his AI helper) to explain exactly when and where “the legislature has identified in that statute the maximum rate that an attorney fee can be awarded on a per hourly basis.”

Take a screenshot of this "AI generated" note and post it on here please?

I do not see any reference to AI on the answer.

I did receive an answer from the Attorney saying " I am certain it is a per hour fee. Candidly, in the industry it is understood. "

I also posted a question to him directly in private message explaining that the " per hour" was missing from the laws and quoted him the rules and asked him if he was certain it was per hour and he replayed " I am certain. "

This may just be industry terms that everyone knows what they mean. I was looking at an oil pipeline and they had a cleaning device that they called like a " Squealing pig" but it was not an actual pig but rather a machine which went inside the pipe and made a lot of noise.

So they Attorney from the state said this is an industry understood term for per hour not in total.
However, I do wish they wrote these terms clear for the average joe like me to read them.

 

[ApplePhone]

Troll alert.

Stop feeding the troll.

You are suggesting the attorney is trolling me? He has 10 out of 10 rating from the website.

 

[Zigner]

The term is VERY clear.

 

[quincy]

You are suggesting the attorney is trolling me? He has 10 out of 10 rating from the website.

I am suggesting that the attorney’s AI is mistaken about that statute. The statute says “not to exceed $250.” It does not say “not to exceed $250 per hour.”

The $250 can be awarded by a judge by statute without any action on the part of the prevailing party to show that the attorney earned $250. The statute allows for this $250 award. Additional attorney fee amounts can be awarded an attorney under the process indicated in Utah’s Rules of Civil Procedure, Rule 73.

Statutes say what they say. You cannot just add whatever you want to them to make them say what you want them to say.

 

[adjusterjack]

You are suggesting the attorney is trolling me?

No, I'm suggesting that you are the troll.

An internet troll is a person who intentionally tries to instigate arguments in an online community.

You keep repeating the same points over and over again to provoke responses which, unfortunately, continue.

 

[quincy]

No, I'm suggesting that you are the troll.

An internet troll is a person who intentionally tries to instigate arguments in an online community.

You keep repeating the same points over and over again to provoke responses which, unfortunately, continue.

I can see where ApplePhone might be confused by the wording of the statute, especially when he is receiving a conflicting answer elsewhere.

Not everyone understands that under the “American Rule” (which Utah courts generally follow) each party is responsible for paying their own attorney fees. A party generally can only recover attorney fees when that party has prevailed in the litigation and there is a contract between the parties or a statute that allows for attorney fee recovery.

Not everyone who posts a question to this forum is a troll if they ask for additional clarification.