What's the next step?

[doc2b]

Just a thought here. Have it decreed that in odd-number years, mom gets first choice of summer weeks for vacation; dad gets first choice even-number years. Or whichever way you want ...

That-is a great idea!

Do you think they should require permission from each other, though(that was suggested earlier)? That just seems like it leaves it wide open to a turn into a mess if mom can just say "no" because she has something else planned...

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Now, say that it's mom's turn for 4th of July, but dad's turn to pick dates. Dad should NOT pick dates that trump mom's 4th of July. Courtesy also says that you shouldn't pick a date, like a long standing family reunion to be pissy either.

If mom's gonna pick a date on dad's year to pick, she should ASK first to see if it works. Otherwise, if dad is doing the 90 day notice, mom can't deny a reasonable request.

Personally, each parent should get a couple of weeks that they can take an uninterrupted vacation. The days that are missed from one parent will be made up when the other parent gets their two weeks.

 

[doc2b]

This is 1 time that I think this is just a spouse trying to stay in the background and help dad gather info.

doc2be doesn't APPEAR to be an overstepping step, although I know that appearances can be deceiving.

doc2be, stay in the background on this as much as possible, or you will cause problems for your husband. And understand that most here don't generally advise 3rd parties, which you are.

I appreciate the comment

I'll admit, I went there early on in the marriage because I was overly protective of my husband, and hated what the kids were going through and tried to "take them under my wing". I started reading every post on here I had time for, and really gained a whole new perspective of the situation. I couldn't believe how insensitive some of the answers seemed until I really understood that the legal and emotional aspects were not at all tied together. That is something that is not easy to wrap your head around...at all.

I'm the man behind the curtain, now And as a 3rd party, I appreciate all the advice (and my husband does, too).

 

[doc2b]

Now, say that it's mom's turn for 4th of July, but dad's turn to pick dates. Dad should NOT pick dates that trump mom's 4th of July. Courtesy also says that you shouldn't pick a date, like a long standing family reunion to be pissy either.

If mom's gonna pick a date on dad's year to pick, she should ASK first to see if it works. Otherwise, if dad is doing the 90 day notice, mom can't deny a reasonable request.

Personally, each parent should get a couple of weeks that they can take an uninterrupted vacation. The days that are missed from one parent will be made up when the other parent gets their two weeks.

This is exactly what I was trying to find out for him (and more, actually).

I remember reading so many threads about summer vacation overlapping stuff like the 4th of July, Labor Day and other pre-designated holidays. It's confusing because the CO states holiday time supercedes, yet summer vacation is considered holiday time, too. It all basically boils down to common courtesy and common sense.

Thanks, Ginny!

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Having WAYYYYY too much experience with the Michigan courts system:

If anyone has the time to look these parts from the original motion and the responses over and give an opinion on which options are the most realistic/fair for mom and dad, I would appreciate it. Try as I might to give him my unbiased opinion (and believe me, my husband doesn't like it most times), I still feel like I tend to take sides and he needs guidance from an uninvolved party. Some of the requests they can agree on, so I won't put them in here.

1

. Husband has W/Th/Fr/Sa overnights each week. Mom has kids at 9am/2pm on Sundays (alternating) until Wed. 6pm, then again after school until 6pm on Thursday and Friday because Dad had late work schedule at time of original agreement (he has since been able to change his work hours to allow him to get out early enough to pick them up from school). He's asking for uninterupted parenting time from Wednesday at 6pm until mom picks them up Sunday so that he can actually have time to do homework/have dinner/allow kids time to do extracurriculars and free time without the time constraint (their bedtime is 9pm and they don't actually get home from pickup until 6:30pm). Her response is that he has sufficient/substantial parenting time and that her parenting time would be severely impacted if this were granted. She then goes on to say that she should be allowed every other weekend starting at 9am Friday through 9am Monday. (My bias may be showing here, but if she'd be severely impacted by losing out on 5 hours a week, what about my husband losing between 4 and 6 days and nights a month? Keep in mind, too, he almost always allows her to have the kids on his weekend days if she gives him enough notice for their plans, but she will not reciprocate.)

I would probably offer a different way of handling a 50/50 arrangement so that each parent gets a chance for a weekend, etc. What if the exchange takes place Mondays at 9AM. They stay with that parent for the week and have a mid-week dinner date with the other parent.

2. They both agree to change ROFR to 8 hours rather than 2 hours. Existing order allows grandparents (maternal and paternal) 2 overnights per month during their own child's parenting time. Mom wants to lift the limit and allow grandparents unlimited overnights with the kids. Dad thinks limit has worked well for 2 years now, and would like the opportunity for the kids to spend more time with their parents if mom or dad is unavailable to the kids outside the normal grandparents visitation and the ROFR. This only limits overnights absent the parents, not time spent with the grandparents during the parent's designated days.

If both can live with, nothing wrong with it.
3

. Dad proposed 2 weeks summer vacation to replace 1 week summer vacation for both parents (to be used all at once or in 2 blocks). Also, that both parents give 30 days notice of intent to use time, unless otherwise agreed upon. Mom still only wants 7 days per parent, with 30 days notice and approval of other party ("cannot conflict with other scheduled events").

As a side note, she's tried to inhibit his summer vacation time in the past. He gave 3 months notice that there was a Disney trip planned, 2 months later she finally responded that she had plans with family coming into town and he wasn't allowed to take them. Basically, this would give her free reign to say no to anytime he requested for vacation days for any reason she chooses.

see my prior suggestion

4. Dad wanted to clarify times for Mother's/Father's day and parents and kids' birthdays. CO currently states "children's birthdays shall be spent with Plaintiff in all odd numbered years, with the defendant in all even numbered years" (no times given). Mother's day/Father's day/parent's b-days are from 10am-8pm. Dad suggested 9am -8:30 pm. Mom responded with "Mother's day shall start at 9am" (since mother's day and fathers day fall on Sunday, she's got no real end time since she already has them overnight).

normal Michigan guideline gives the parent who's holiday it is the WHOLE weekend.

5. Current CO has dad getting Winter break (they alternate Christmas Eve and Christmas Day), and mom gets mid-winter break. Mom suggests alternating first and second weeks of winter break, and alternating mid-winter break (not a big deal, sounds fair). Problem is, Dad's Birthday falls during second half of winter break, and he wouldn't be able to see the kids for his birthday if it's her half of the break. Also, she is requesting that if he has the first half of the break, she is allowed to have the kids the first Sunday of his portion of the break for her family Christmas party (which he has always let her have them, at least for half of the day...but, if we were to ever want to visit out of town relatives over Christmas, this would cut a few days out of our travel time).

I'll mention the Michigan parenting guideline at the bottom. Generally one parent gets the first half of winter break until Christmas Eve at 9pm. Then, the other parent gets the next half. It should be clarified about husband's birthday.

6. Mom wants written notification of any plans to travel out of state, including dates, times, locations, addresses, phone numbers, and names. (She didn't ask for him to have to have a permission slip signed, though ) She does, however, want the court to require the parent's consent to travel with the kids out of the country (I wish we could afford overseas travel).

It is reasonable to be able to contact the other parent, in case of emergency. A phone number (like a cell) is reasonable. A lot that was requested sounds like control issues.

7. Mom wants ANY change in domicile approved by her or the court (she caught wind that we were trying to get a bigger house since we've outgrown this one...as it stands, CO states that we only need to notify her of local moves, and only need her permission or court permission outside of 50 miles from current residence. We're looking at moving a maximum of 8 miles further away from mom than we already are, and have been providing the kids' transportation to the school in the mornings even though she's supposed to, so it won't impact her in the least since my husband (or I) does all the driving).

Actually, the guidelines are a 100 miles, or with permission of the courts if the other parent doesn't agree.

8. Dad asked for children to be able to spend max 5 hours time with half-siblings on their birthday, no response from mom. (just looking for an opinion as to whether that's reasonable or if he should drop it).

Probably won't get the courts to agree. How about celebrating when it's YOUR weekend.

I think that's all he was wondering for the parenting plan portion of the motions/response. It ends with a request for motion to be denied and request that the court grant relief requested in Def. paragraph 7. What the heck does that mean? There is no paragraph seven

Might be referring the Michigan parenting guidelines.

If you took the time to read all this and still have the energy to respond, it's much appreciated!

http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/services/focb/parentingtime/500.htm
http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/services/focb/parentingtime/FOC_Forms/pt_guidelines.pdf

 

[doc2b]

I forgot from past posts you deal in Michigan too (live in Floriday, right?)

Having WAYYYYY too much experience with the Michigan courts system:

I would probably offer a different way of handling a 50/50 arrangement so that each parent gets a chance for a weekend, etc. What if the exchange takes place Mondays at 9AM. They stay with that parent for the week and have a mid-week dinner date with the other parent.

It may or may not work out that way...they've both arranged their work schedule around the current plan, and I know (my husband, at least) the work schedule cannot be changed again unless/until he is transferred to a different office location. It's always an option, though!

Normal Michigan guideline gives the parent who's holiday it is the WHOLE weekend.

I remember reading that...their current arrangement was something they agreed upon amongst themselves, I think

I'll mention the Michigan parenting guideline at the bottom.

Thank you! I actually have it saved on my hard drive

Generally one parent gets the first half of winter break until Christmas Eve at 9pm. Then, the other parent gets the next half. It should be clarified about husband's birthday.

How does that work when the break isn't split equitably? (like if Christmas falls on the first Tuesday of break, you'd only get 4 days?)

It is reasonable to be able to contact the other parent, in case of emergency. A phone number (like a cell) is reasonable. A lot that was requested sounds like control issues.

I can agree with that. They actually both call the kids nightly before bedtime, so it's common practice to stay in touch, regardless of vacation time, etc.

Actually, the guidelines are a 100 miles, or with permission of the courts if the other parent doesn't agree.

She wants permission for any change in domicile

Probably won't get the courts to agree. How about celebrating when it's YOUR weekend.

Oh, fine

Might be referring the Michigan parenting guidelines.

I'll look it up right now!


Michigan Parenting Time Guideline
http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/services/focb/parentingtime/FOC_Forms/pt_guidelines.pdf

Ginny, they've never gone through FOC until now (he reopened the FOC case when he filed the motions). It's in Wayne County...you don't happen to have experience in Wayne County Courts? Just for a heads up...?

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

I forgot from past posts you deal in Michigan too (live in Floriday, right?)




Ginny, they've never gone through FOC until now (he reopened the FOC case when he filed the motions). It's in Wayne County...you don't happen to have experience in Wayne County Courts? Just for a heads up...?

Sorry but I'm on the western side of the state.

As for the X-mas break, it works out in the end, really.

She won't get the domicile request. If she wanted to control WHERE he lived, then they should have stayed married.

Expect it to go to mediation.

And personally, I would never go with FOC services.

 

[doc2b]

Sorry but I'm on the western side of the state.

As for the X-mas break, it works out in the end, really.

She won't get the domicile request. If she wanted to control WHERE he lived, then they should have stayed married.

Expect it to go to mediation.

And personally, I would never go with FOC services.

I'll take your word for the Christmas break thing...you're the experienced one

And, she didn't have a say in whether they stayed married...the control thing is part of the reason why he filed in the first place.

He would like to think mediation would work, but the several attempts they had during the divorce, they would come to an agreement, be close to signing and then she'd go ape-poop and walk out on the whole thing. (Another control thing, but back then she admitted to doing it in order to draw out her medical coverage as long as possible. Why not just ask for COBRA? )

And as far as FOC goes...oh,crap. Now he can't get out of it if he wanted to for another year or too, from what I've read. He thought it would be better because they are able to enforce the CO (which isn't always being followed by somebody). Can I ask why it may not be a good idea?

Live and learn, I guess.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

I'll take your word for the Christmas break thing...you're the experienced one

And, she didn't have a say in whether they stayed married...the control thing is part of the reason why he filed in the first place.

He would like to think mediation would work, but the several attempts they had during the divorce, they would come to an agreement, be close to signing and then she'd go ape-poop and walk out on the whole thing. (Another control thing, but back then she admitted to doing it in order to draw out her medical coverage as long as possible. Why not just ask for COBRA? )

And as far as FOC goes...oh,crap. Now he can't get out of it if he wanted to for another year or too, from what I've read. He thought it would be better because they are able to enforce the CO (which isn't always being followed by somebody). Can I ask why it may not be a good idea?

Live and learn, I guess.

Typo on my part. **I** would NEVER go without FOC. I have definitely used their services many, many, many times. Can't say that my X has listened to FOC, but they certainly filed enough show cause motions on my behalf.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Every time we appeared in front of the referee, she would look at our names and go - forget mediation and set a trial date. Can say this much. I have NEVER lost ground going to trial since my X is his own worst enemy. Open mouth and insert the feet.

 

[doc2b]

Typo on my part. **I** would NEVER go without FOC. I have definitely used their services many, many, many times. Can't say that my X has listened to FOC, but they certainly filed enough show cause motions on my behalf.

Okay, that makes me feel a lot better. I was worried that he made a wrong move by opening that up...I don't know why they declined it to begin with. Well, I do, but it was ONLY so that he could pay her CS directly, and he's lost out on years of being able to use FOC to enforce the orders. Technically, his attorney screwed up by suggesting it and having him sign the form to decline because of the documented history of domestic violence in the relationship (just FYI, it's not my husband's DV history).

Better late to get them involved than never...but I guess it doesn't help if the ex is absolutely determined to not follow the CO.

 

[doc2b]

Every time we appeared in front of the referee, she would look at our names and go - forget mediation and set a trial date. Can say this much. I have NEVER lost ground going to trial since my X is his own worst enemy. Open mouth and insert the feet.

Do you go in alone or do you have an attorney? He's a little nervous representing himself since he's not had to experience it before...and he really wants to decline mediation because of their past history in unsuccessful mediation.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

I have used the same attorney for the past 8 years. My X goes pro se - his bad cuz I have an extremely good attorney. If your husband is going to go pro se, make sure that he does his homework beforehand.

You might be able to have an attorney review all the paperwork that he wants to file BEFORE he files. It can be worth the few bucks.

 

[doc2b]

I have used the same attorney for the past 8 years. My X goes pro se - his bad cuz I have an extremely good attorney. If your husband is going to go pro se, make sure that he does his homework beforehand.

You might be able to have an attorney review all the paperwork that he wants to file BEFORE he files. It can be worth the few bucks.

He's pro se and she's pro se (We're all po' folk )
He's already filed his motions with the court. One for change in parenting time and one for change in child support. She's responded to both, and he's trying to get a response to her response ready to send. He just recieved the FOC CS investigation packet and has to send that out, too. He would really like to work out an agreement to submit to the court before anything has to be decided by the referree/judge, but that just doesn't seem likely between the two of them (I'll keep my fingers crossed). He did get the name of an attorney today that his friend recently used, and is going to see if he will help with paperwork and maybe take a payment plan (again, fingers crossed).

The response she sent was weird, though. It was hand typed (looked and sounded professional, though) and she didn't use the FOC response form that goes along with the FOC Motion forms...I thought you had to file the forms, not just write up your own thing. It doesn't have the FOC stickers up in the corner or anything (the ones with the barcode and case number/judge's name on them)...I haven't been able to find anything about how you'd respond to this kind of response...there aren't any court forms for this. Where the heck is the instruction manual?!?

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Here's a source for all your motions:

http://courts.michigan.gov/scao/courtforms/domesticrelations/drindex.htm#sup