debating about summer vacation time already....what to do?

[tiredofthegamez]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

please bear with, might be lengthy-

Most recent modification/contempt hearing was held in Dec. 2010 and I received the new revisions to the order last month. The new order was modified to outline that mothly visitation is changed to the 1st and 3rd weekends in a month, from Friday 6pm to Sunday 6pm. In addition, each parent is entitled to 2 non-consecutive weeks of summer visitation, when a parent wishes to exercise a period of visitation they must give at least 20 days written notice to the other parent, and the parent who gives notice first will be given preference for that week. Also the parents must include an itinerary for any trip in the notice of preffered dates. The contempt was listed as "held in abeyance pending Mother's compliance with above terms."

In e-mail about a different issue, I mentioned that I was looking at mid-June and mid-August for summer vacation, so as not interfere with the weekends he would be with her. She replied that she didn't think the mid-June vacation would work because kids will proabably still be in school with all the snow days right now (I also realized June 15th would fall before the first day of summer). She said that her first week of summer vacation would be "the 1st or 2nd week of July", but she had to pinpoint the dates of their trip. She also said that she "couldn't gaurantee that it won't impede on his time with you". She said she's undecided on the 2nd week. She told me to "pin down exact dates" and she would do the same.

My next e-mail I gave notice of these dates- Tuesday July 12th (I'd pick him up at 6pm) to July 19th at 6 pm and Aug. 14th to Aug. 21st. (same times for pick up). I gave an itinerary for plans (ie, movies, going to the park). In keeping with her "beginning of July" request, I said that if she were to arrange the first week of her vacation from July 4th to the 11th (it's his year to be with her for Independence Day anyway), that would not interfere with custody and would fall in the time frame she mentioned. I reminded her to include the itinerary with her notice of specific dates. I said that I was willing to move the July vacation start date I'm seeking to July 13th or 14th even. I also said that if she were planning to have him at any time during the 1st and/or third weekends of the month, what other days during the summer could the time he is to be here be made up (also mentioning the weekends of June 24th and July 30th would not work as we already have things scheduled for those dates).

Her reply was that she had already told me that they would be taking their trip in the beginning of July, so she would get preference for that time "as per the order". She says that I "already chose (my) dates, in the first e-mail", and that their trip will be July 9th and arriving back on July 16th. She did not mention anything about scheduling make up time, and a July 16th arrival back in town would mean he would not be at her residence for scheduled pick up on July 15th (the 3rd weekend in July). She said she will give an itinerary "when she knows it" (hard for me to believe, as we've had shared legal custody since 2005, and she's only shared a couple of copies of paperwork, despite all he has received). She also said that I "could still take him on June 15th, even if the kids are still in school, just need to make sure he gets to school". I'm not sure how that would all work out as my work schedule is M-F from 5 am to 3/4 pm.

So now what happens? Would she get first preference for the week she named in July or do I go by the dates I named? Do I still go to pick him up on July 15th when she's telling me that is when she wants to exercise her first week of summer vacation, and our son will not be there? Is there any action that can be taken when she is telling me now that she will not comply with even regular weekend custody on that date? Can/does this go to mediation ahead of time, and what would it take to get that going? Help is appreciated

 

[Proserpina]

Is there a reason - as of right now, today - you can't come to an agreement/negotiation with Mom as to holiday visitations?

Do you seriously want to go to mediation?

 

[stealth2]

In all honesty - why can't you adjust your schedule, since it appears you're not going out of town?

And... unless your order specifies that visitation time is made up if summer vacation choices conflict? She likely doesn't have to offer it. Nor would you.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? PA

please bear with, might be lengthy-

Most recent modification/contempt hearing was held in Dec. 2010 and I received the new revisions to the order last month. The new order was modified to outline that mothly visitation is changed to the 1st and 3rd weekends in a month, from Friday 6pm to Sunday 6pm. In addition, each parent is entitled to 2 non-consecutive weeks of summer visitation, when a parent wishes to exercise a period of visitation they must give at least 20 days written notice to the other parent, and the parent who gives notice first will be given preference for that week. Also the parents must include an itinerary for any trip in the notice of preffered dates. The contempt was listed as "held in abeyance pending Mother's compliance with above terms."

In e-mail about a different issue, I mentioned that I was looking at mid-June and mid-August for summer vacation, so as not interfere with the weekends he would be with her. She replied that she didn't think the mid-June vacation would work because kids will proabably still be in school with all the snow days right now (I also realized June 15th would fall before the first day of summer). She said that her first week of summer vacation would be "the 1st or 2nd week of July", but she had to pinpoint the dates of their trip. She also said that she "couldn't gaurantee that it won't impede on his time with you". She said she's undecided on the 2nd week. She told me to "pin down exact dates" and she would do the same.

My next e-mail I gave notice of these dates- Tuesday July 12th (I'd pick him up at 6pm) to July 19th at 6 pm and Aug. 14th to Aug. 21st. (same times for pick up). I gave an itinerary for plans (ie, movies, going to the park). In keeping with her "beginning of July" request, I said that if she were to arrange the first week of her vacation from July 4th to the 11th (it's his year to be with her for Independence Day anyway), that would not interfere with custody and would fall in the time frame she mentioned. I reminded her to include the itinerary with her notice of specific dates. I said that I was willing to move the July vacation start date I'm seeking to July 13th or 14th even. I also said that if she were planning to have him at any time during the 1st and/or third weekends of the month, what other days during the summer could the time he is to be here be made up (also mentioning the weekends of June 24th and July 30th would not work as we already have things scheduled for those dates).

Her reply was that she had already told me that they would be taking their trip in the beginning of July, so she would get preference for that time "as per the order". She says that I "already chose (my) dates, in the first e-mail", and that their trip will be July 9th and arriving back on July 16th. She did not mention anything about scheduling make up time, and a July 16th arrival back in town would mean he would not be at her residence for scheduled pick up on July 15th (the 3rd weekend in July). She said she will give an itinerary "when she knows it" (hard for me to believe, as we've had shared legal custody since 2005, and she's only shared a couple of copies of paperwork, despite all he has received). She also said that I "could still take him on June 15th, even if the kids are still in school, just need to make sure he gets to school". I'm not sure how that would all work out as my work schedule is M-F from 5 am to 3/4 pm.

So now what happens? Would she get first preference for the week she named in July or do I go by the dates I named? Do I still go to pick him up on July 15th when she's telling me that is when she wants to exercise her first week of summer vacation, and our son will not be there? Is there any action that can be taken when she is telling me now that she will not comply with even regular weekend custody on that date? Can/does this go to mediation ahead of time, and what would it take to get that going? Help is appreciated

Dad, a couple of things....

A week is 7 days, not 5. While its very nice and considerate that you are trying to avoid taking a week that includes one of her weekends, (and in fact I believe that is what all parents should do) if a scheduled vacation does include one of the other parent's weekends, makeup time is generally not required.

You can simply make up the time by selecting your week to cover one of her weekends instead of trying to get makeup time. If she tries to argue the point, you simply tell her that she took one of your weekends for her vacation, so its even.

She is going out of town for her vacation and she warned you in advance of that. You are not going out of town. Therefore you should conceed that particular week to mom.

You could also take a later week in June or the first week in July.

 

[mistoffolees]

So now what happens? Would she get first preference for the week she named in July or do I go by the dates I named? Do I still go to pick him up on July 15th when she's telling me that is when she wants to exercise her first week of summer vacation, and our son will not be there? Is there any action that can be taken when she is telling me now that she will not comply with even regular weekend custody on that date? Can/does this go to mediation ahead of time, and what would it take to get that going? Help is appreciated

TECHNICALLY, ex didn't meet the requirement because she didn't give an itinerary (assuming that you accurately quoted the order). She also didn't give dates ("the first week of July" isn't a date, and, more importantly, July 9 to July 16 is not the first week of July, anyway). So you were the first to give a date and if you gave an itinerary, your choice would take precedence.

That is compounded by the fact that Mom is facing a contempt charge that is held in abeyance pending her following the court orders. If she fails to follow the court orders, she could be back in court.


HOWEVER, with that said, you're both being juvenile. If you can't even decide on which dates to have your summer vacation (when neither of you apparently has anything that's etched in stone like a family wedding or something), then your hopes of ever being able to co-parent effectively are nil. Do yourselves (and more importantly, the child) a favor by using this as an opportunity to learn to talk about things and work out a problem without getting into a foolish battle over who's right and who's wrong.

 

[tiredofthegamez]

To try to address all-

I have been (and am still) trying to work this out with his mother. That is why I have asked what to do in this situation. How is that being juvenile?

She first told me "the first or second week of July". Okay. When I listed July 12th as a start date for the 1st selected week of summer vacation, I had no way to know at that point the specific dates in that time frame that she would pick. I will mention again (as I told her even when I put forth July 12th) that I am willing to move the start date to July 13th, 14th....even the 15th if need be (the 15th at 6pm is when I am supposed to pick him up for regular weekend visitation anyway). Now she wants to be adamant about taking July 9th and not bringing him back until the 16th.

I also didn't know before that she was expecting to have him on vacation on July 15th/16th, since she had first said "the first two weeks in July", and taking him past the 14th would then be going into the third week of July. It is that weekend of the 15th that I am concerned about, more than when the first week of summer vacation he could be with me is.

I have considered trying to schedule a different first week. Two concerns with that- there is an incident on police record where she came to pick him up more than 2 hours early on a weekend he was here. When the police were showed the order, they said to get him ready and make him leave with her, because the order "didn't specify" that it was son's weekend here. (This is when order listed EOW, not specified to 1st and 3rd). That is why the order was just modified to the 1st and 3rd weekends in a month. So if I were to try to arrange to have vacation time when it does not specify that time in the order, what is to stop the same thing from happening? (Her bringing cops to make him leave) The police have also refused to file reports of past attempted pick-ups that were denied (again, because I was told to 'go back to court and get a more specific order' or there was "nothing they could do").....result: visits were missed. Again, what if I go to pick him up and she refuses or son is not there? The 15th is a specific custody time.

On that same end, my second concern is how she keeps repeating about how she had given me notice first about the first two weeks in July. There is a limited time frame I have to work with in June (as yes, there are plans then and an event already scheduled that I would need to be at), and if I were to try to arrange it for the very end of June/very beginning of July, would she be able to use her "first notice of that time frame" against me to prevent the vacation time? If I thought her and I could work something else out, that would be great. History has shown otherwise. But I am not, nor would I, try to prevent him from a trip with Mom, and I am not trying to make her "wrong".

Something I'd like to clarify- the movies and park are in my itinerary, but I didn't mean to imply that there were no other plans for the summer (as I just mentioned, there are). Also to clarify- she had not mentioned anything about any trip until her 2nd e-mail, after I had told her I was thinking about time period for summer vacation. Exact wording on the order is- "Each parent shall be entitled to two (2) non-consecutive weeks of summer vacation time. When a parent wishes to exercise this period of time, they shall give the other party at least twenty (20) days written notice of the week selected. The notice shall include the itinerary for any trip. The parent who gives written notice first shall have priority for the week selected."

So to be clear with the advice given- I am to understand that I should not go to pick him up at all in mid-July, even for the third weekend; and am to accept that is now his time with Mom. Is this right?

 

[SESmama]

Just out of curiosity what does your order state about holiday/summer vacation time vs standard parenting time? Correct me if I am wrong but would not the summer weeks override the standard 1/3 weekends? I have such an order but mine does specifically state that holiday and summer holiday from school overrides the standard parenting time.

 

[LdiJ]

Just out of curiosity what does your order state about holiday/summer vacation time vs standard parenting time? Correct me if I am wrong but would not the summer weeks override the standard 1/3 weekends? I have such an order but mine does specifically state that holiday and summer holiday from school overrides the standard parenting time.

Yes, you are correct that vacations trump regularly scheduled parenting time.

OP, she has specifically selected a week. You simply select two weeks NOW, that she has not selected, and you should be fine. You could start one of your weeks on the 17th of July to run for 7 consecutive days. There is nothing she can argue about against that. Yes, you would be using one of her weekends, but since she used one of yours, its even.

Normally I am very anti parents selecting vacation time that does not encompass one of their regular weekends, because I have seen parents abuse that badly. However that usually happens when an ncp gets first crack at summer, and has 4 or more weeks of vacation to select, and deliberately selects all his/her vacation weeks to never include any of their own weekends, effectively taking all or most of the cp's summer weekends.

However, that is not what is going on here. You each get to select two weeks. She has only selected one, and you have the opportunity now to select one that utilizes one of her weekends, to make it even. DO SO. Then, if she picks her second week and it utilizes one of your weekends again, then do it again.

 

[tiredofthegamez]

Just out of curiosity what does your order state about holiday/summer vacation time vs standard parenting time? Correct me if I am wrong but would not the summer weeks override the standard 1/3 weekends? I have such an order but mine does specifically state that holiday and summer holiday from school overrides the standard parenting time.

The new modifications to the order do not specifially say that summer vacation takes precedence over regular custody schedule, it only specifies that the parent who first gives twenty days written notice, with itinerary, of the week selected shall have priority for that week. In the original order of 2005 it does specify that holiday visitation (on a rotating schedule) prevails over all other periods of visitation.

I already understood that she could select a week even if it would coincide with the first and/or third weekends of the month. Maybe I am not being clear in my posts? My confusion is in the fact that she initially told me she would be taking either of the first two weeks in July (not selecting a specific week). Next I sent notice selecting the dates July 12th to the July 19th. AFTER that is when she told me she is now selecting the dates of July 9th to the July 16th, and in two subsequent e-mails told me that she would not yet give an itinerary. I said I am not insistent on July 12th, but now seek to select the date of July 14th or 15th instead, as that would not go against her initial "first two weeks of July" request. Am I to understand that the outline for summer vacation is to be taken to mean that she can block out the whole first half of the month to select the first week she'd like, just because she called dibs (so to speak) on that whole 'time period' first? It did not seem at first that either of us could do that under the new provisions of the order. I don't and wouldn't object to her exercising the vacation in the first two weeks of the month, since she gave notice of that first.

None of the subsequent replies addressed my concerns about why I'm hesitant to now select a different first week. The modifications and the abeyance of contempt were listed because there IS a lengthy history of her denying visits and cutting them short (hence the reference to the incident where she brought police and forced son to leave here hours ahead of time). Yes, I could give her a new summer vacation notice and select July 17th instead. My questions are- I go to pick him up on that date, and son is not there (as she has done before).....what happens? Would the police file it as a missed visit? Or would they be able to tell me again that there's nothing to prove that son is to have that custody time with me? And if he were to come on July 17th, but she then attempted to pick him up the next day or any other time that would cut the time short (again, as she has done before).....what is to stop her from doing that?

It seems I'm being told that nothing it says in the custody order matters, it is meaningless, and that son's time with me is up to Mom- as it has always been. My intentions are not to make Mom wrong, but to ensure that our child is able to have his time with me. Under Mom's control without custody order (even with order, as noted), he gets denied that time. Is all this right?

 

[mistoffolees]

The new modifications to the order do not specifially say that summer vacation takes precedence over regular custody schedule, it only specifies that the parent who first gives twenty days written notice, with itinerary, of the week selected shall have priority for that week. In the original order of 2005 it does specify that holiday visitation (on a rotating schedule) prevails over all other periods of visitation.

I already understood that she could select a week even if it would coincide with the first and/or third weekends of the month. Maybe I am not being clear in my posts? My confusion is in the fact that she initially told me she would be taking either of the first two weeks in July (not selecting a specific week). Next I sent notice selecting the dates July 12th to the July 19th. AFTER that is when she told me she is now selecting the dates of July 9th to the July 16th, and in two subsequent e-mails told me that she would not yet give an itinerary. I said I am not insistent on July 12th, but now seek to select the date of July 14th or 15th instead, as that would not go against her initial "first two weeks of July" request. Am I to understand that the outline for summer vacation is to be taken to mean that she can block out the whole first half of the month to select the first week she'd like, just because she called dibs (so to speak) on that whole 'time period' first? It did not seem at first that either of us could do that under the new provisions of the order. I don't and wouldn't object to her exercising the vacation in the first two weeks of the month, since she gave notice of that first.

None of the subsequent replies addressed my concerns about why I'm hesitant to now select a different first week. The modifications and the abeyance of contempt were listed because there IS a lengthy history of her denying visits and cutting them short (hence the reference to the incident where she brought police and forced son to leave here hours ahead of time). Yes, I could give her a new summer vacation notice and select July 17th instead. My questions are- I go to pick him up on that date, and son is not there (as she has done before).....what happens? Would the police file it as a missed visit? Or would they be able to tell me again that there's nothing to prove that son is to have that custody time with me? And if he were to come on July 17th, but she then attempted to pick him up the next day or any other time that would cut the time short (again, as she has done before).....what is to stop her from doing that?

It seems I'm being told that nothing it says in the custody order matters, it is meaningless, and that son's time with me is up to Mom- as it has always been. My intentions are not to make Mom wrong, but to ensure that our child is able to have his time with me. Under Mom's control without custody order (even with order, as noted), he gets denied that time. Is all this right?

You've already been told that that isn't the case. You COULD go to court and fight over it, but because neither of you has followed the letter of the decree, that could be an exercise in frustration - and would simply make the two of you even MORE bitter and angry.

Just do as Ldij suggested. Now that you've got her schedule, pick your own weeks and be done with it. You haven't indicated that there's any special event that you were planning to attend.

And, as you've been told, vacation time will trump normal weekend visitation time.

You're making this far more difficult than it needs to be. Save the battles for things that really matter. Which week you get for vacation is not one of them.

 

[stealth2]

I think what we're trying to tell you is that this is not a hill to die on. Do you have a big family event to attend at the time you chose (wedding, baptism, reunion) or already booked a trip that you can't alter? No? Then just shift your days! This is not that huge a deal. Really.

And I say that as a CP who has rearranged plenty of schedules so the other parent had whatever time was requested. It just isn't worth the hassle. If you DON'T get teh time? That's a different story. But if you get it two days later? Big flippin' deal. IMO.

 

[tiredofthegamez]

You've already been told that that isn't the case. You COULD go to court and fight over it, but because neither of you has followed the letter of the decree, that could be an exercise in frustration - and would simply make the two of you even MORE bitter and angry.

Just do as Ldij suggested. Now that you've got her schedule, pick your own weeks and be done with it. You haven't indicated that there's any special event that you were planning to attend.

And, as you've been told, vacation time will trump normal weekend visitation time.

You're making this far more difficult than it needs to be. Save the battles for things that really matter. Which week you get for vacation is not one of them.

I'm more confused now. First you had said that I had given her notice of the selected dates first, now you say that neither one of us has followed the letter of decree?

None of this addresses the issue with pending contempt based on past history and the questions I asked about picking a different weekend. I will try to ask one last time- if I give new notice for a different weekend, go to pick son up and no one is there......what happens? Would it be able to be filed as denial of visitation?? Or does that not even matter anymore, she has the right to decide if son will be picked up whenever she thinks its ok. At this point I really don't care about giving up on the idea of mid- July visitation/vacation....I would just like to know what date I would be allowed to pick son up

 

[stealth2]

if I give new notice for a different weekend, go to pick son up and no one is there......what happens? Would it be able to be filed as denial of visitation?? Or does that not even matter anymore, she has the right to decide if son will be picked up whenever she thinks its ok. At this point I really don't care about giving up on the idea of mid- July visitation/vacation....I would just like to know what date I would be allowed to pick son up

What do you mean by a different weekend? I thought your weekend visitation was specified 1st, 3rd, etc?

If you give notice for different weeks for your summer vacation and she doesn't make the child available, you file against her for contempt.

 

[tiredofthegamez]

I think what we're trying to tell you is that this is not a hill to die on. Do you have a big family event to attend at the time you chose (wedding, baptism, reunion) or already booked a trip that you can't alter? No? Then just shift your days! This is not that huge a deal. Really.

And I say that as a CP who has rearranged plenty of schedules so the other parent had whatever time was requested. It just isn't worth the hassle. If you DON'T get teh time? That's a different story. But if you get it two days later? Big flippin' deal. IMO.

I have been willing to shift the days. Still willing to shift the days. I don't feel like any of you are understanding what I've been saying. In answer to the particular question in this post, no , there are no events scheduled right now for the first week I had given notice for, other than the fact that regular visitation would be scheduled to take place on the 15th (but please understand- I. get. that. vacation. time. negates. regular. custody. schedule.)

She finally sent notice today that their plans are to go to the Jersey Shore, beach and boardwalk every day. I don't know why she couldn't switch her dates to the 7th to 15th (keeping in with her requested first two weeks in July). That would give the time she sent notice for, I have no objections to it and son will not miss out on the shore.

 

[tiredofthegamez]

What do you mean by a different weekend? I thought your weekend visitation was specified 1st, 3rd, etc?

If you give notice for different weeks for your summer vacation and she doesn't make the child available, you file against her for contempt.

I apologize now for the post I just made, feeling very frustrated with miscommunication at this point.

Yes, that is what I meant- that the new modifications only specify time periods when it comes to weekends (now 1st and 3rd of every month, before it was just EO)....and summer vacation (as it appears currently) is up in the air.

My specific concern is that I would not be able to file for contempt because the police would say (as they have several times already) that there is nothing to say that I'd have custody at that time. On the first and third weekends, if Mom has taken son, I can at least try to show police "This order shows that this weekend is our time as it is the third weekend of month". This is what the conference officer told me in the hearing.

I'm going to be late going back from lunch, so I have to go now