Dispute over 4th July holiday

[DecisionTime]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oregon

Dad and I are disputing the 4th of July holiday and I would appreciate some input. We have joint legal and are on a 5/5/2/2 schedule.

Stipulated parenting plan says the 4th is mine in odd years and his in even years. The holiday is specified from Thursday at 5:00 pm to Monday at 5:00 pm. The intent during negotiation was to allow either parent the opportunity to travel/go camping/whatever in connection with the holiday but the plan doesn't capture that intent.

Father contends that means my holiday time ends at 5:00 pm Monday and that he has the right to pick her up at 5:00 pm Monday to enjoy the rest of the holiday (he normally has Mon & Tue every week). I contend that if I don't have her the evening of the 4th then I essentially haven't got the holiday (fireworks, etc). I acknowledge that the holiday could be interpreted as he contends based on how the plan is written.

However, even allowing for his interpretation, the plans also states we have the right for up to "three week vacation with child, with 30 days written notice, not to impact the holiday schedule unless agreed in writing." Back in March I provided written notice that I intended to exercise vacation to occur the week of July 4-8 and that I would then have her for the holiday weekend, the vacation week, and my regular parenting weekend following, giving me an uninterrupted period of just less than two weeks. I have immediate family in town that haven't seen my daughter for 18 months and we made these plans well in advance. He did not respond to that notice.

He now says that by proposing to take my vacation adjacent to the holiday I am impacting the holiday schedule. I contend that as the 4th of July is listed as my holiday then he has no holiday schedule to impact. The way I read the plan, either the holiday is mine, and my vacation period starts the next day; or the holiday ends at 5:00 pm, and my vacation period starts at 5:01 pm.

Who is correct?

 

[stealth2]

When do you usually swap the child (i.e. time of day)?

I, personally, do think you're playing a bit fast and loose with the wording.

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oregon

Dad and I are disputing the 4th of July holiday and I would appreciate some input. We have joint legal and are on a 5/5/2/2 schedule.

Stipulated parenting plan says the 4th is mine in odd years and his in even years. The holiday is specified from Thursday at 5:00 pm to Monday at 5:00 pm. The intent during negotiation was to allow either parent the opportunity to travel/go camping/whatever in connection with the holiday but the plan doesn't capture that intent.

Father contends that means my holiday time ends at 5:00 pm Monday and that he has the right to pick her up at 5:00 pm Monday to enjoy the rest of the holiday (he normally has Mon & Tue every week). I contend that if I don't have her the evening of the 4th then I essentially haven't got the holiday (fireworks, etc). I acknowledge that the holiday could be interpreted as he contends based on how the plan is written.

However, even allowing for his interpretation, the plans also states we have the right for up to "three week vacation with child, with 30 days written notice, not to impact the holiday schedule unless agreed in writing." Back in March I provided written notice that I intended to exercise vacation to occur the week of July 4-8 and that I would then have her for the holiday weekend, the vacation week, and my regular parenting weekend following, giving me an uninterrupted period of just less than two weeks. I have immediate family in town that haven't seen my daughter for 18 months and we made these plans well in advance. He did not respond to that notice.

He now says that by proposing to take my vacation adjacent to the holiday I am impacting the holiday schedule. I contend that as the 4th of July is listed as my holiday then he has no holiday schedule to impact. The way I read the plan, either the holiday is mine, and my vacation period starts the next day; or the holiday ends at 5:00 pm, and my vacation period starts at 5:01 pm.

Who is correct?

Your problem is that you have a badly written order. Yes, the intent is that you have the 4th of July holiday with all the bangs and whistles that go with that holiday, and I think its very unlikely that you would be held in contempt for insisting upon your holiday.

However, due to the fact that the 4th of July could fall on almost any day of the week to have the holiday defined as Thursday until Monday at 5PM is a problem. What are you going to do if the 4th falls on a Tuesday or Wednesday?

Therefore, you need to take it back to court to get the holiday schedule rewritten to correct that problem, as well as any other problems that you might encounter.

In the meantime however, I recommend that you insist on your holiday and your vacation.

 

[DecisionTime]

Stealth, we normally do exchanges at preschool, so at 5:00 - 5:30 pm. Preschool is closed all next week though (hence me taking the week off with her on vacation).

Wouldn't my vacation time trump his Monday evening though? According to the holiday schedule he doesn't have any holiday time associated with the 4th?

I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I was really looking forward to doing the fireworks with her this year. I missed out last year as it was his year.

 

[mistoffolees]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Oregon

Dad and I are disputing the 4th of July holiday and I would appreciate some input. We have joint legal and are on a 5/5/2/2 schedule.

Stipulated parenting plan says the 4th is mine in odd years and his in even years. The holiday is specified from Thursday at 5:00 pm to Monday at 5:00 pm. The intent during negotiation was to allow either parent the opportunity to travel/go camping/whatever in connection with the holiday but the plan doesn't capture that intent.

Father contends that means my holiday time ends at 5:00 pm Monday and that he has the right to pick her up at 5:00 pm Monday to enjoy the rest of the holiday (he normally has Mon & Tue every week).

And he would be right - given the way your wording reads. The order specifically states that the holiday ends at 5 pm. The court isn't going to care if you think it ends at a different time.

I contend that if I don't have her the evening of the 4th then I essentially haven't got the holiday (fireworks, etc). I acknowledge that the holiday could be interpreted as he contends based on how the plan is written.

Your contention is wrong. If there was no specific wording, you could contend that the Holiday ends at midnight, but since your court order specifies exactly when the Holiday ends, the court order trumps any contention you might wish to make.

However, even allowing for his interpretation, the plans also states we have the right for up to "three week vacation with child, with 30 days written notice, not to impact the holiday schedule unless agreed in writing." Back in March I provided written notice that I intended to exercise vacation to occur the week of July 4-8 and that I would then have her for the holiday weekend, the vacation week, and my regular parenting weekend following, giving me an uninterrupted period of just less than two weeks. I have immediate family in town that haven't seen my daughter for 18 months and we made these plans well in advance. He did not respond to that notice.

He now says that by proposing to take my vacation adjacent to the holiday I am impacting the holiday schedule. I contend that as the 4th of July is listed as my holiday then he has no holiday schedule to impact. The way I read the plan, either the holiday is mine, and my vacation period starts the next day; or the holiday ends at 5:00 pm, and my vacation period starts at 5:01 pm.

Who is correct?

You haven't given the exact wording of the vacation part of your orders, but if you've paraphrased it properly, you would be correct. If there are no restrictions, you can start your vacation whenever you want. Since the Holiday schedule officially ends at 5:00 pm Monday, if your vacation starts at 5:00 pm Monday, it has no impact on the vacation schedule.

(I do not however, accept that there is no holiday schedule to impact, although this does depend on the exact wording. If it says that the vacation can not impact on the OTHER PARENT's holiday schedule, then you could make that argument. But if it simply says that the vacation can not impact the Holiday Schedule, then you would not be able to overlap your vacation with even your own Holiday time (although there's no reason why you would want to)).

 

[stealth2]

Your problem is that you have a badly written order. Yes, the intent is that you have the 4th of July holiday with all the bangs and whistles that go with that holiday, and I think its very unlikely that you would be held in contempt for insisting upon your holiday.

However, the order specifies until 5pm. That, in and of itself, precludes fireworks on Monday night. The *intent*, IMO, is for the parent with the holiday to have the entire weekend, ending Monday at 5pm. Besides, many communities no longer do fireworks on the 4th, especially if it falls on a weekday. Surely there are fireworks locally that Mom could take kiddo to on Fri/Sat/Sun. Then allow Dad to have Monday overnight and pick her up on Tuesday.

Mom says nothing about going away. In fact, she specifies that her family is local, so one overnight, or even the day, shouldn't really impact things terribly.

Given that, this year, the 4th IS on the Monday. it's not unreasonable for Dad to anticipate having a small part of the holiday w/his daughter. Scheduling vacation on the tail of it is, to me, kind of sneaky. And not very nice.

(And yes, now I expect to hear all about the horribly unfair things Dad has done. )

 

[mistoffolees]

Your problem is that you have a badly written order. Yes, the intent is that you have the 4th of July holiday with all the bangs and whistles that go with that holiday, and I think its very unlikely that you would be held in contempt for insisting upon your holiday.

I disagree. It's not a badly written order. It may not be what they WANT, but it's very clear. It states that the Holiday ends at 5:00 pm Monday. That means that, for legal purposes, the Holiday ends at 5:00 pm Monday. I don't see how it could be any clearer.

 

[CJane]

Stealth, we normally do exchanges at preschool, so at 5:00 - 5:30 pm. Preschool is closed all next week though (hence me taking the week off with her on vacation).

Wouldn't my vacation time trump his Monday evening though? According to the holiday schedule he doesn't have any holiday time associated with the 4th?

I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I was really looking forward to doing the fireworks with her this year. I missed out last year as it was his year.

I actually agree with your interpretation - that your vacation time begins when the holiday ends - at 5pm on Monday.

HOWEVER, get this fixed prior to next year when the holiday actually falls completely outside the Thursday - Monday that's outlined in the schedule.

My order actually addresses the 4th of July based on which day of the week the holiday actually falls on to determine whether the "holiday" encompasses a weekend. You could do the same.

 

[LdiJ]

However, the order specifies until 5pm. That, in and of itself, precludes fireworks on Monday night. The *intent*, IMO, is for the parent with the holiday to have the entire weekend, ending Monday at 5pm. Besides, many communities no longer do fireworks on the 4th, especially if it falls on a weekday. Surely there are fireworks locally that Mom could take kiddo to on Fri/Sat/Sun. Then allow Dad to have Monday overnight and pick her up on Tuesday.

Mom says nothing about going away. In fact, she specifies that her family is local, so one overnight, or even the day, shouldn't really impact things terribly.

Given that, this year, the 4th IS on the Monday. it's not unreasonable for Dad to anticipate having a small part of the holiday w/his daughter. Scheduling vacation on the tail of it is, to me, kind of sneaky. And not very nice.

(And yes, now I expect to hear all about the horribly unfair things Dad has done. )

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Mom didn't get a small part of dad's holiday last year, and dad shouldn't expect to get a small part of mom's holiday this year.

I just tried to find a perpetual calendar for the 4th of July and was unable to find one quickly, but I was able to determine that for 2012 (dad's year) the 4th will be on a Sunday, for 2013 (mom's year the 4th will once again be on a Monday...so she will have the same problem the next time around), and for 2014 (dad's year) it will be on a Tuesday.

I don't think that she should give up her holiday.

 

[DecisionTime]

I take your point on when the holiday ends. We'll have to get that corrected as the intent was never to cut short the holiday on one parent, but rather to prolong it to a whole weekend for the posessing parent's benefit.

Misty, here's the exact vacation option wording:
"Each parent has option to take 3 week vacation with child; with 30 days written notice, not to impact above holiday schedule unless agreed in writing. overseas travel permitted."

Accepting the holiday period ends Monday at 5:00 pm, am I understanding you to mean that I'm okay to start my vacation immediately afterward because it then "does not impact the holiday schedule."?

Any suggestions for better wording on the 4th to prevent this kind of hiccup going forward?

 

[CJane]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Mom didn't get a small part of dad's holiday last year, and dad shouldn't expect to get a small part of mom's holiday this year.

I don't think it has anything to do with when the holiday ends. If Mom notified Dad that her vacation will start on 7/4, then her vacation will start on 7/4. It's that simple.

I just tried to find a perpetual calendar for the 4th of July and was unable to find one quickly, but I was able to determine that for 2012 (dad's year) the 4th will be on a Sunday, for 2013 (mom's year the 4th will once again be on a Monday...so she will have the same problem the next time around), and for 2014 (dad's year) it will be on a Tuesday.

That's impossible, L.

2012 = Wed
2013 = Thurs
2014 = Fri
2015 = Sat
2016 = Mon

Etc.

It's never going to flip flop back and forth. It's going to move forward, one day different each year except for leap years when it will be two days off from where it was the previous year.

BUT, if the order specifies that the ACTUAL holiday will be celebrated between Thursday and Monday, Mom will actually have kiddo ON the 4the next year if her usual day of the week is Wednesday.

 

[stealth2]

I just tried to find a perpetual calendar for the 4th of July and was unable to find one quickly, but I was able to determine that for 2012 (dad's year) the 4th will be on a Sunday, for 2013 (mom's year the 4th will once again be on a Monday...so she will have the same problem the next time around), and for 2014 (dad's year) it will be on a Tuesday.

Uuuuh... I don't know where you got those days from, LDi...

http://www.apples4theteacher.com/holidays/fourth-of-july/when-is-the-4th-of-july.html:

Year**************...4th of July falls on**************.Observed Federal Holiday
2009**************...Saturday*********************.Friday, July 3 or Saturday, July 4**
2010**************...Sunday**********************.Monday, July 5
2011**************...Monday**********************.Monday, July 4
2012**************...Wednesday*******************.Wednesday, July 4
2013**************...Thursday*********************.Thursday, July 4
2014**************...Friday************************.Friday, July 4
2015**************...Saturday*********************.Friday, July 3 or Saturday, July 4**

 

[DecisionTime]

Lots of replies! Will try to catch up.

stealth, actually my family are visiting from overseas and this is the first time we've seen them for over a year. However, they're also here for a long visit so missing a day or two isn't the end of the world. I just had plans to do the big local fireworks with everyone here in my town.

The 4th is very important to her dad so it would be gracious of me to allow him to take her. But damn, he got last year and next year too, so I feel like he's being unfair here too. Yeah, I could find fireworks a different night, but it won't be the huge display over the bridges downtown that I was looking forward to.

CJane, I would very much appreciate seeing your wording if that is possible? This will keep coming up. And thanks for running forward the dates.

I won't share the invective that accompanied the email with this dispute, as I'm trying really hard to take the high road where I can. My posting history shows that too. I didn't schedule vacation sneakily, I told him three months ago, and part of it is to cover daycare closure that week.

 

[nanu156]

you could take out the weekend wording and list the 4th of july to begin at 8am and end at 8am the following day. You could then list the weekend before the 4th to be from thursday-monday at 5pm. two separate entities. That would solve your issue.

I agree I don't think you would be in contempt but I think giving him daughter at 5 on the 4th to retrieve her the next morning is probably the best solution.

I know around here all the fireworks and such are Saturday anyway.

 

[mistoffolees]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Mom didn't get a small part of dad's holiday last year, and dad shouldn't expect to get a small part of mom's holiday this year.

And he doesn't. According to their existing court order, Mom's holiday ends at 5:00 pm Monday - and Dad's not asking for part of that.

No one cares that YOU might define the holiday differently than the court order. They are obligated to follow the court order - not your own thoughts on when the holiday should end.