Custody after International Child Abduction for 7Y NJ

[Proserpina]

NO, I am saying that, and I am not here to get answers i want or to vent out, i am here to get answers that can make me understand legally, and get through the legal process

I'm sorry. I have no excuse for being snippy.

 

[Father of Orpha]

Here is your problem in a nut shell it appears. First you did not obtain a visitation order when you and mom split up. Second you did not even try to complain to the court about the loss of visitation until she was gone for over 6 months. The court would assume the children are now subject to the jurisdiction they are in, because they are not likely coming back. Third, now she came back, but you are basically a stranger to the kids. you need court ordered visitation to slowly build a relationship back up. Fourth, you also need the court to order her not to leave their jurisdiction without permission and court order she post a very large bond if she plans to take them out of the country. Then you can establish parental kidnapping if you do not sit on your rights this time.

Thanks for the buttery recommendations.
FIrst, as I said , I did have visitations when we separated before she left, then we settled outside court.
What are visitation plans would be ideal make me look understanding of the situation to the judge, and build relationship with the kids. When it comes to jurisdiction, as I said case is in NJ, and children are in NY, and I really want them to move to NJ"even with mom", I don't want them or her to build ties in NY, and makes it hard to move her in NJ.
This time no overseas travel, with or without bail, she really doesn't care...she is here only, because situations had gotten bad where she used to be

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

You were not clear that prior to her leaving there were visitation orders in NJ. Please amend my answer to reflect that. Otherwise it is the same. NJ does not appear to have a specific statute determining minimum visitation. Next time you are in court, advise the judge the phone calls order is not working and why. Ask for full day visitation with overnights. Expect to get just the day or maybe half a day per week. Each time you appear, ask for more than you expect to get, assuming the judge will order a bit less.

 

[Father of Orpha]

Then that's a good thing for you!



I think that children absolutely do deserve to know and spend time with both parents if at all possible, outside of a few instances which don't apply here.



The problem is, that neither of us can change what happened. Yes, it's absolutely horrendous for Mom to do what she did and yes, I personally believe she should be punished but none of that changes the current situation where she really is the only parent they know. Now it could be argued that children adapt faster than we usually think and if the children were much younger right now, you really might have been able to make that argument. Unfortunately they're already in a stressful situation they're already having to get used to things all over again, and it will come down to best interests.

And yes, this needs to be said: too many parents use the children as pawns, and will do just about anything in their power to keep hold of those pawns. This includes filing all manner of restraining orders and methods I'd rather not even think about. Is it wrong? Damn skippy it's wrong. It's VERY wrong. But it places the court in a difficult position. How do they fix this?

What about a middle ground? You start small, and agree to a reintroduction period after which you steadily work up to more parenting time?

Let's start thinking outside the box. Let the knee-jerk reactions pass by, and instead look for ways you can do this which would also preserve some parenting time for Mom, and would be as stress-free as it could possibly be made.

Thank you for your rational thinking process. what I am thinking of is to bring her with kids to nj, so I can help with school andhomewor, to do exactly what you are suggesting, build relationship, especially both children are boys, I can do things here. HOw can I do that legally, as she is now want to use the domestic violence to limit and supervise my time with the kids.

 

[Father of Orpha]

You were not clear that prior to her leaving there were visitation orders in NJ. Please amend my answer to reflect that. Otherwise it is the same. NJ does not appear to have a specific statute determining minimum visitation. Next time you are in court, advise the judge the phone calls order is not working and why. Ask for full day visitation with overnights. Expect to get just the day or maybe half a day per week. Each time you appear, ask for more than you expect to get, assuming the judge will order a bit less.

Thanks for the advises, seems to be good plans.
When it comes to the calls, how shall I reply, if she claims that the children didn't want to talk to me? shall I ask for fines payed to me for not allowing me to bond with the kids?

 

[single317dad]

Thanks for the advises, seems to be good plans.
When it comes to the calls, how shall I reply, if she claims that the children didn't want to talk to me? shall I ask for fines payed to me for not allowing me to bond with the kids?

You should document each of those incidences and use them to demonstrate her continued intent to prevent you from parenting your children.

 

[LdiJ]

Thanks for the buttery recommendations.
FIrst, as I said , I did have visitations when we separated before she left, then we settled outside court.
What are visitation plans would be ideal make me look understanding of the situation to the judge, and build relationship with the kids. When it comes to jurisdiction, as I said case is in NJ, and children are in NY, and I really want them to move to NJ"even with mom", I don't want them or her to build ties in NY, and makes it hard to move her in NJ.
This time no overseas travel, with or without bail, she really doesn't care...she is here only, because situations had gotten bad where she used to be

Dad...for a second I want to try to completely forget about how YOU feel, and try to imagine how your children feel. Try to remember events from your own childhood that made you feel homesick or missing your parents, to try to help get inside their heads. Imagine what you would have felt like at their ages had you been separated from your parents, against your will.

Once you have done that, then try to imagine what the adults in your life could have done at that moment, and what you could do at this moment, to try to make things work better and more smoothly, for your children. Imagine that you were nervous or afraid of the person who was going to be separating you from your parents, imagine what it would have taken for you to become comfortable with that person.

Again, forget completely about you, forget completely about your desire to get them into NJ, forget completely about what mom has done, forget completely about everything but what would make them feel the most comfortable with you and what would make them WANT to spend time with you.

THEN, design a progressive visitation plan, that slowly integrates them into your life, and propose THAT, to the judge. Tell the judge that you understand that you are a stranger to your children and that you want them to WANT to be part of your life. Tell the judge that despite the fact that their mother behaved horribly, that you recognize that they are the ones that are important here, not you or mom, and that you want this to work for THEM. If you can do that sincerely, without falseness then the judge is going to be impressed with you and will bend over backwards to help you make that work...AND you will also be doing the best thing for your children.

You also have to recognize that the US is a whole new experience for them, particularly if their English is limited. Pulling them out of the school that they are in now, to transplant them once again, may really not be in their best interest. It also might be helpful to ask the judge to order that mom make the children available for counseling between you and the children, hopefully with a counselor who speaks both English and their primary language.

 

[single317dad]

Dad...for a second I want to try to completely forget about how YOU feel, and try to imagine how your children feel. Try to remember events from your own childhood that made you feel homesick or missing your parents, to try to help get inside their heads. Imagine what you would have felt like at their ages had you been separated from your parents, against your will.

Once you have done that, then try to imagine what the adults in your life could have done at that moment, and what you could do at this moment, to try to make things work better and more smoothly, for your children. Imagine that you were nervous or afraid of the person who was going to be separating you from your parents, imagine what it would have taken for you to become comfortable with that person.

Again, forget completely about you, forget completely about your desire to get them into NJ, forget completely about what mom has done, forget completely about everything but what would make them feel the most comfortable with you and what would make them WANT to spend time with you.

THEN, design a progressive visitation plan, that slowly integrates them into your life, and propose THAT, to the judge. Tell the judge that you understand that you are a stranger to your children and that you want them to WANT to be part of your life. Tell the judge that despite the fact that their mother behaved horribly, that you recognize that they are the ones that are important here, not you or mom, and that you want this to work for THEM. If you can do that sincerely, without falseness then the judge is going to be impressed with you and will bend over backwards to help you make that work...AND you will also be doing the best thing for your children.

You also have to recognize that the US is a whole new experience for them, particularly if their English is limited. Pulling them out of the school that they are in now, to transplant them once again, may really not be in their best interest. It also might be helpful to ask the judge to order that mom make the children available for counseling between you and the children, hopefully with a counselor who speaks both English and their primary language.

I agree for the most part. Dad has definitely been wronged here. The children have certainly been wronged as well. I don't know that handing the kids to Dad rights any of those wrongs, and that's probably one of the many things the judge is considering, and why he hasn't simply snatched the kids from the "kidnapper" and handed them over.

 

[Proserpina]

(This is a bit of a hijack - sorry 'bout that)

Y'know, there are some days when I want to scream at some posters and responders alike.

But then there are days like this, where the contributors go out of their way to explain things instead of slamming the OP, that make me thankful. Even when there's no end to the frustration of the situation, the focus is on the children and (to something of a lesser degree) the parent in need. Even when there's really nothing we can find to help, at least the OP is being heard and God only knows that's so important.

Now onto your regularly scheduled box-thinking

 

[LdiJ]

I agree for the most part. Dad has definitely been wronged here. The children have certainly been wronged as well. I don't know that handing the kids to Dad rights any of those wrongs, and that's probably one of the many things the judge is considering, and why he hasn't simply snatched the kids from the "kidnapper" and handed them over.

I completely agree that both dad and the children have been wronged. However, at this point, at their current ages, and based on the fact that mom has returned to the US with them, that they are really the only ones that matter, that dad really has to focus on them and not himself. I do not see any other way to make it work without traumatizing them further.

Dad feels that they have been brainwashed against him and that might be true...its even probable that its true. However, dad is neglecting to consider that mom is all they know, and that the week that they were with him, particularly if he doesn't speak their primary language, might really have terrified them. Can you imagine having been ripped from the only parent you know at age 8-10, with a language barrier as well?

The judge is obviously focusing on the children...and if dad can demonstrate that he is focusing 100% on them as well I really do think that it will impress the judge.

 

[Father of Orpha]

Dad...for a second I want to try to completely forget about how YOU feel, and try to imagine how your children feel. Try to remember events from your own childhood that made you feel homesick or missing your parents, to try to help get inside their heads. Imagine what you would have felt like at their ages had you been separated from your parents, against your will.

Once you have done that, then try to imagine what the adults in your life could have done at that moment, and what you could do at this moment, to try to make things work better and more smoothly, for your children. Imagine that you were nervous or afraid of the person who was going to be separating you from your parents, imagine what it would have taken for you to become comfortable with that person.

Again, forget completely about you, forget completely about your desire to get them into NJ, forget completely about what mom has done, forget completely about everything but what would make them feel the most comfortable with you and what would make them WANT to spend time with you.

THEN, design a progressive visitation plan, that slowly integrates them into your life, and propose THAT, to the judge. Tell the judge that you understand that you are a stranger to your children and that you want them to WANT to be part of your life. Tell the judge that despite the fact that their mother behaved horribly, that you recognize that they are the ones that are important here, not you or mom, and that you want this to work for THEM. If you can do that sincerely, without falseness then the judge is going to be impressed with you and will bend over backwards to help you make that work...AND you will also be doing the best thing for your children.

You also have to recognize that the US is a whole new experience for them, particularly if their English is limited. Pulling them out of the school that they are in now, to transplant them once again, may really not be in their best interest. It also might be helpful to ask the judge to order that mom make the children available for counseling between you and the children, hopefully with a counselor who speaks both English and their primary language.

Believe me I do understand that very well, that is why I want them her in nj, think about it, the kids English is bad, she doesn't speak English, and they need help to understand english and rest of school stuff, so who would be the super hero who can help better than dad a couple of hours a day, which would increase with time the problem that she still doesn't want me to be involved. how would I execute that legally.

 

[Father of Orpha]

I completely agree that both dad and the children have been wronged. However, at this point, at their current ages, and based on the fact that mom has returned to the US with them, that they are really the only ones that matter, that dad really has to focus on them and not himself. I do not see any other way to make it work without traumatizing them further.

Dad feels that they have been brainwashed against him and that might be true...its even probable that its true. However, dad is neglecting to consider that mom is all they know, and that the week that they were with him, particularly if he doesn't speak their primary language, might really have terrified them. Can you imagine having been ripped from the only parent you know at age 8-10, with a language barrier as well?

The judge is obviously focusing on the children...and if dad can demonstrate that he is focusing 100% on them as well I really do think that it will impress the judge.

Just correction, I never saw the kids till the moment I speak now. I do speak their language very well, and i don't feel they are brainwashed, I know they are brainwashed based on the single time i poke to them and the way m, and the tone they answered me...it seems that every one focus on the children make them forget that the children's right to have a father, and bond with him that is why orphan is a sad word in any language or culture, there no word actually for someone who had lost mom while young, it is always those who had lost dad, and I really don't want to get into philosophy here, I just want to focus my thought process to be able to fight for children's right to have a a father, and my rights to have children , and I never said anything about mom being excluded, she is the one who is trying to do that.
I agree with you need to focus on showing that to the judge, and I actually , contrarily to how I sound, I really want this to happen

 

[LdiJ]

Believe me I do understand that very well, that is why I want them her in nj, think about it, the kids English is bad, she doesn't speak English, and they need help to understand english and rest of school stuff, so who would be the super hero who can help better than dad a couple of hours a day, which would increase with time the problem that she still doesn't want me to be involved. how would I execute that legally.

I do not think that you are getting what I am saying. I want you to go to bed, go to sleep and get up tomorrow and think about what I said. I am actually on your side here but I don't think that you are ready yet to let go of your own hurt enough to totally focus on your children.

Schools in NYC are among the best in the nation as far as dealing with children for whom English is not their primary language...however that is only relevant as to the argument that mom could make against your argument that the children should be enrolled in school in NJ.

 

[stealth2]

Reading through the responses, I was thinking the same as LDi - NY schools are generally better equipped to deal w/non-English speakers than most NJ schools. Not all, but most. To be thrown into English immersion (which is essentially what you are suggesting) at their ages may not be the most successful endeavor.

Added to that - you can not make Mom move anywhere. Your best bet would be to look up "step up plans" for visitation. There is really nowhere in NJ that is so far from Brooklyn that one of those can't be workable.

ETA: I also think that, despite the dismissal, the DV issue MAY be important. What did it actually involve?

 

[Father of Orpha]

Reading through the responses, I was thinking the same as LDi - NY schools are generally better equipped to deal w/non-English speakers than most NJ schools. Not all, but most. To be thrown into English immersion (which is essentially what you are suggesting) at their ages may not be the most successful endeavor.

Added to that - you can not make Mom move anywhere. Your best bet would be to look up "step up plans" for visitation. There is really nowhere in NJ that is so far from Brooklyn that one of those can't be workable.

ETA: I also think that, despite the dismissal, the DV issue MAY be important. What did it actually involve?

According to my Kids, they are not taking any extra classes for English, and the public school system they are in not in the best areas of NY.

Finally somene started to talk about DV, I didn't understand your question about involvement?
Thanks