NYC No Standing Bus Stop ticket

[nycmystery]

Hi everyone,

I was parked on River Avenue in the Bronx, a bit away from Yankee Stadium (toward 153rd St). I parked at 10:43 am.

There was a pole with two signs where I parked, one that read "No Parking Stadium Event" (there was no Stadium event), and "No Parking 8-9:30 AM" with an arrow that pointed to my side of the street (right). I parked a little bit in front of the sign, as there was a car parked behind it. Probably about 20 feet away was a hydrant, and then another 20 feet (I'm estimating, it's likely more) was a bus stop sign. The arrow on the sign pointed, again, to my side of the block, and read "No Standing." However, immediately to the right of that sign, was another official NYC parking sign that read "No parking stadium event" again, for BOTH sides of the street, and then "No parking 8-9:30 am" again for both sides of the street. So which was I supposed to follow?

I was fined for parking in a no standing bus stop zone; I was also towed (4 hours later than I had parked) at 2:30 and had to pay $185 (in CASH ONLY, which is illegal as far as I know) to get my car back.

The signs are very unclear and confusing -- the bus stop sign was so far away that I hadn't even noticed it when I parked, and I certainly wasn't a problem for the buses -- not that that defense would matter. However, I'm confused. The bus stop sign indicates where the bus stop begins, right? And then it's supposed to end at the next official parking sign in whatever direction the arrow is pointing - but the arrow was pointing directly to the right, to another sign! I'm just so confused as to how I was supposed to know which side of the sign was a no standing zone, and where it began and ended, when the signs were so confusing. I'm also confused because between my car and the bus stop sign was a hydrant, so I assumed a bus wouldn't pull into a hydrant spot, which was wrong, apparently. I also don't understand what the "beginning" of a bus stop means. Does that mean the end of the bus will line up with the sign, or the front of it?

Is there any way I can fight this ticket?

I took photographs of the area and where I was parked if anyone needs more clarification.

 

[HighwayMan]

You obey the most restrictive sign. If there was no stadium event then those signs can be ignored as if they weren't there.

The fact that you did not see the bus stop sign is no excuse. Only one sign is required on a block and the restriction is valid.

I will admit your description is a little confusing, especially when you say something like the sign was pointing to your "side" of the street. Parking signs must be posted on the same side as the restriction and do not point across streets.

 

[nycmystery]

Right, I understand that, and I understand that I'm supposed to follow the most restrictive sign- however I am confused about where the bus stop begins and ends. As far as I know, bus stops begin at the sign and extend in the direction of the arrow as far as the next sign. But the bus stop sign had an arrow simply pointing to the right (my side of the street) where another parking sign was immediately posted. So I had no idea where it began and ended.

 

[HighwayMan]

As far as I know, bus stops begin at the sign and extend in the direction of the arrow as far as the next sign.

Correct. Or the corner of the block is there are no other signs.

But the bus stop sign had an arrow simply pointing to the right (my side of the street) where another parking sign was immediately posted.

There you go again with this side of the street stuff. THAT MAKES NO SENSE. Parking signs only affect ONE SIDE of a street. You need to describe this accurately.

 

[HighwayMan]

What is written for the location of offense on the ticket?

Exactly as written on the ticket.

 

[nycmystery]

No need to get worked up. But I'll try and explain what I mean better; admittedly it's hard to do on a forum.

The arrow indicating the direction of the bus stop was not tilted toward any direction. Not forward, not backward (toward me). It was simply pointing to the right. The sign was not tilted.

There was not a way for me to tell which direction the bus stop went; forward or back on my side of the road.

My ticket reads "No standing bus stop- all days/all times."

 

[nycmystery]

Apologies; it reads about 400 ft N/E of 157th St for location.

 

[AdoptADog]

If the bus stop sign arrow was pointing toward your car, and there were no other signs then the stop goes all the way to the corner.

 

[nycmystery]

I suppose my confusion mostly stems from the unclearness of the arrow- as I've stated above the arrow WAS pointing to the right (from my POV) but wasn't tilted toward any direction, forward away from my car or backward toward it. So I am unsure on if arrows pointing to the right always mean forward from where you are. Bus stop signs are usually clearly tilted to show you which direction the bus will be stopping in.

If it is the law that right arrows mean forward, even without the tilt, then I will pay my fine. I just am trying to understand and see if this is a situation in which it was clear or if I just didn't know. Admittedly I am fairly new to NYC laws so I don't want to make the mistake again if I am wrong.

 

[AdoptADog]

I believe I get what you are saying, but never having been to NYC I cannot say for sure. The sign was perpendicular to the street so the arrow was confusing? The arrow on the sign was pointed to the right, away from the street? Hopefully someone who knows can comment.

p.s. as a visitor, my interpretation of my scenarion would mean no parking from the sign to the right of the sign if you were standing on the street facing it, all the way to the corner of the block (if there were no other signs)....I could be oh, so very wrong.

 

[nycmystery]

Correct. The sign was perpendicular making the arrow to simply appear to be pointing to the right, aka, my side of the street. Not in front of nor behind it. So it's unclear at least to me if the bus would be stopping in front of the sign or behind it. I'm just wondering if this is a case in which the ambiguity of the signs is at fault or I am.

 

[HighwayMan]

Your descriptions leave alot to be desired. "Tilting"??

I'll tell you right now that if you fight this ticket and attempt to explain the situation the way you have explained it here you will lose. You are very unclear and confusing in your description of the signs and their placement.

 

[HighwayMan]

Apologies; it reads about 400 ft N/E of 157th St for location.

So let me get this straight... and this is critical...

What you wrote is verbatim what was written on the Notice of Violation? Nothing more nothing less?

The police officer or traffic agent wrote "about"?

 

[nycmystery]

So let me get this straight... and this is critical...

What you wrote is verbatim what was written on the Notice of Violation? Nothing more nothing less?

The police officer or traffic agent wrote "about"?

Ticket reads (for location):

W/S River Ave
400ft N/of E 157th St

No about; I meant to correct this earlier but I was writing the post on my phone and accidentally hit reply before I could edit. Is "about" considered a ticket mistake?

Anyway. I know I'm explaining it poorly; I'm not really expecting to be able to win this case, just want to learn the specifics of the situation and the laws. This is really more of a question of if the signs were ambiguous or not. As I said, I'm relatively new to NYC traffic laws, so I want to get them straight, and wanted to make sure there was not a way to fight this before I paid the fine, as I do know how tow-happy the city can be and especially because the 31st (the day of my offense) was right before the 1st of the month, they were probably going hard.

But I digress. Thank you for your time anyhow.

 

[HighwayMan]

Is "about" considered a ticket mistake?

Well, it's not a proper way to denote a location.

W/S River Ave
400ft N/of E 157th St

This is what I was getting at. As you originally wrote it the ticket would be dismissed because the location is not valid. Your corrected location is valid.



Sometimes the signs are somewhat rotated but you have to use your head a bit. If the sign is actually perpendicular to the street the arrows will point to areas on either side of the street but that's pretty rare and they are usually rotated just a bit off from where they should be.

I'm down that way sometimes but won't be for probably quite a while so I can't have a look. I'll try Google street view when I get a chance but won't have time today.

IF it is that bad maybe it's a basis to fight the ticket and win but you have got to be very clear and precise in your descriptions which you haven't been here.

You can't say things like "in front of" or "behind the sign" - that has no meaning. You need directions - north, south, east and west. That's a start.