MIP in MICHIGAN but lives in Ohio.

[quincy]

While it might be theoretically possible to charge everyone in a car with the possession of the alcohol container, I have found most prosecutors (and probably most courts) do not like that shotgun approach. To be more certain of a filing, you narrow it down to the person who had immediate access - in this case, that is apparently the OP's daughter. And, it might be that the daughter even indicated she was aware of the jar and what it contained, even though it was not hers. People sometime forget that "possession" does NOT mean "ownership". Itmeans only that constructive possession (dominion and control) of the item in question.

The "empty" beer cans in the back cannot be charged as an open container because, well, they are empty. Unless, of course, the law in MI covers the possession of empty beer cans (which might make dumpster diving and recycling a legally vexing occupation).

I agree that the daughter needs to look into the possibility of consulting an attorney. There may be available diversion programs or other options to help keep this off of any permanent record.

As for notifying her school, I don't know that would happen. The state is under no obligation to seek out a defendant's employment or school info (and we never sought it for notification purposes), and a defendant is under no legal obligation in MI (that I know of) to supply this info to the police. I DO know that in my state the police do not regularly make such notifications, and it is arguable that such a contact for no legitimate enforcement purpose could be seen as some form of unlawful harassment ... the term escapes me as it has been a long night. A University officer, on the other hand, likely could potentially report the offense to the university as a matter of course.

I already explained how Michigan handles this. The police and schools work together.

In Michigan, you cannot return empty alcohol cans/bottles for recycling unless these empties are transported in the trunk of the vehicle. Anyone in a vehicle can be charged just as any minor at a party where alcohol is available can be charged (and convicted) of possession.

The laws are changing in Michigan on possession but not until January 1, 2018.

Courts in Michigan vary significantly in how they handle minor in possession charges (with some judges in the past refusing to offer diversion and routinely jailing offenders). This is what spurred the changes in the law. A lot of students were winding up with criminal records if they did not request a jury trial.

Many (but not all) college towns have alcohol and marijuana ordinances that make possession an infraction. How a student fares can depend on if they are charged under State law or city ordinance, therefore. The daughter was charged with possession under the Mt. Pleasant ordinance but the transportation of alcohol is a State misdemeanor charge.

The daughter's college has a legal aid department for students (if the daughter attends the college I think she does). She should take advantage of their services.

 

[CdwJava]

I already explained how Michigan handles this. The police and schools work together.

In Michigan, you cannot return empty alcohol cans/bottles for recycling unless these empties are transported in the trunk of the vehicle. Anyone in a vehicle can be charged just as any minor at a party where alcohol is available can be charged (and convicted) of possession.

I don't doubt that a minor can be charged where alcohol is present. What I cannot seem to find is any MI law that makes possession of an EMPTY can or bottle a crime. If it were, I suspect the OP's daughter's friends would have been charged.

I also cannot find any law that mandates or even encourages local or state law enforcement to obtain school information or report MIPs to local colleges. I am not saying it does not happen, or that it CANNOT happen, only that I see no lawful ability to compel this info from a suspect or law that might make reporting the MIP a reasonable law enforcement action. I admit I may be missing the law in MI, but, it's not hopping out in a quick Google search of several terms.

 

[justalayman]

I have heard of people getting charged with open container for obviously old empty containers inside the car but most of the time the cops have used their powers of observation to discern whether it is a recently opened container, like it was just drank. If it is apparent the driver or passengers were drinking lately it is much more likely the open container charge will be written.

Basically, in Michigan, an open container is an open container.

 

[CdwJava]

I have heard of people getting charged with open container for obviously old empty containers inside the car but most of the time the cops have used their powers of observation to discern whether it is a recently opened container, like it was just drank. If it is apparent the driver or passengers were drinking lately it is much more likely the open container charge will be written.

Basically, in Michigan, an open container is an open container.

Yet, it seems that the statute (257.624a) states, "a person who is an operator or occupant shall not transport or possess alcoholic liquor in a container that is open or uncapped or upon which the seal is broken ..."

The key element is the "alcoholic liquor." I presume that "empty" means that it is bereft of such liquor.

I suppose that case law could have clarified that a container formerly containing liquor qualifies, but, that would seem peculiar to me.

In the end, as repeatedly suggested, the OP's daughter should speak with an attorney who can advise her of her options.

(I know that I could never get away with charging for an open container for an empty container, but that's my experience in CA. Other states may have a different interpretation of these terms.)

 

[justalayman]

Yet, it seems that the statute (257.624a) states, "a person who is an operator or occupant shall not transport or possess alcoholic liquor in a container that is open or uncapped or upon which the seal is broken ..."

The key element is the "alcoholic liquor." I presume that "empty" means that it is bereft of such liquor.

I suppose that case law could have clarified that a container formerly containing liquor qualifies, but, that would seem peculiar to me.

In the end, as repeatedly suggested, the OP's daughter should speak with an attorney who can advise her of her options.

When is the last time you saw a 100% bereft of any fluid container?

 

[CdwJava]

When is the last time you saw a 100% bereft of any fluid container?

I'd get laughed out of the city attorney's office or the DA's office if I tried to file on a few drops of beer in a can! Out here it just wouldn't happen, and I strongly suspect if I took a poll from other law enforcement officers and agencies they'd opine much the same. Absent a gulp or sip, it's empty. And empty usually means laying on its side in the back seat of the car, crumpled, piled, etc. As in, no longer being consumed.

 

[justalayman]

I don't disagree with what you're saying but I have seen it enforced as I'm describing it.

 

[CdwJava]

I don't disagree with what you're saying but I have seen it enforced as I'm describing it.

Different prosecutors, different tolerances. I just don't see it as being reasonable, but, if the local court does not object ...

 

[HighwayMan]

...I have seen it enforced as I'm describing it.

Me too. It is one of the NYPD staples if they're looking for a "number".

 

[quincy]

I have heard of people getting charged with open container for obviously old empty containers inside the car but most of the time the cops have used their powers of observation to discern whether it is a recently opened container, like it was just drank. If it is apparent the driver or passengers were drinking lately it is much more likely the open container charge will be written.

Basically, in Michigan, an open container is an open container.

^^AGREE^^

Michigan is not California. I explained more than once how MICHIGAN handles MIPs and open containers.

Even when recycling empty containers, the empties MUST be transported in the trunk of the vehicle or else a person stopped can be charged under State law. I provided the law earlier.

Michigan schools and the police in every community in Michigan that I am familiar with work together. The schools report student violators to the police and the police report student violators to the schools.

As to the others in the vehicle being charged, I am pretty sure they were - although it is possible they will receive notification in the mail. Remember, too, that we are hearing the daughter's story as told to her mother. Facts may not be quite as has been related here.

The fact is, though, that Michigan has historically been tough on first-time alcohol offenders and teen offenders in particular, with some counties and some judges unreasonably tough. That is why new laws were proposed and enacted. The new laws are just not in effect yet.

 

[not2cleverRed]

^^AGREE^^

Michigan is not California. I explained more than once how MICHIGAN handles MIPs and open containers.

Even when recycling empty containers, the empties MUST be transported in the trunk of the vehicle or else a person stopped can be charged under State law. I provided the law earlier.

Michigan schools and the police in every community in Michigan that I am familiar with work together. The schools report student violators to the police and the police report student violators to the schools.

As to the others in the vehicle being charged, I am pretty sure they were - although it is possible they will receive notification in the mail. Remember, too, that we are hearing the daughter's story as told to her mother. Facts may not be quite as has been related here.

The fact is, though, that Michigan has historically been tough on first-time alcohol offenders and teen offenders in particular, with some counties and some judges unreasonably tough. That is why new laws were proposed and enacted. The new laws are just not in effect yet.

I think Mom's allegation is a red herring.

Who cares whether the others were charged with anything or guilty? The "they were guiltier than me" defense is not much of a defense. I personally think it's NO defense.

Mom is using semantics, splitting hairs - but it's Mom's idea of semantics, definitions.

What matters is not what *Mom's* idea of what an open container is; what matters is what the LEGAL definition, because DAUGHTER has a LEGAL problem.

Furthermore, the only fact Mom can be certain of for sure is the legal charges. Mom was not in the car, and Mom did not see what the police saw.

Judging from Mom's behavior here (it was a jar, not an open container, she didn't drink a drop), she believes her daughter can do no wrong.

 

[quincy]

... What matters is not what *Mom's* idea of what an open container is; what matters is what the LEGAL definition, because DAUGHTER has a LEGAL problem.

Furthermore, the only fact Mom can be certain of for sure is the legal charges. Mom was not in the car, and Mom did not see what the police saw ...

I know parents want to believe that everything their children tell them is the truth - and I generally believe what my children say. But it would be naive of any parent to believe their child is honest with them all of the time.

And I sense a bit of dishonesty in the tale told by the daughter here.

The police are not in the habit of randomly issuing citations that have no merit. There ARE defenses available that might get certain charges reduced or dismissed, which is why an attorney should be consulted. From what has been described here, however, the charges make sense under Michigan laws.

 

[kttrumbo]

mip

While it might be theoretically possible to charge everyone in a car with the possession of the alcohol container, I have found most prosecutors (and probably most courts) do not like that shotgun approach. To be more certain of a filing, you narrow it down to the person who had immediate access - in this case, that is apparently the OP's daughter. And, it might be that the daughter even indicated she was aware of the jar and what it contained, even though it was not hers. People sometime forget that "possession" does NOT mean "ownership". Itmeans only that constructive possession (dominion and control) of the item in question.

The "empty" beer cans in the back cannot be charged as an open container because, well, they are empty. Unless, of course, the law in MI covers the possession of empty beer cans (which might make dumpster diving and recycling a legally vexing occupation).

I agree that the daughter needs to look into the possibility of consulting an attorney. There may be available diversion programs or other options to help keep this off of any permanent record.

As for notifying her school, I don't know that would happen. The state is under no obligation to seek out a defendant's employment or school info (and we never sought it for notification purposes), and a defendant is under no legal obligation in MI (that I know of) to supply this info to the police. I DO know that in my state the police do not regularly make such notifications, and it is arguable that such a contact for no legitimate enforcement purpose could be seen as some form of unlawful harassment ... the term escapes me as it has been a long night. A University officer, on the other hand, likely could potentially report the offense to the university as a matter of course.

I definitely am not trying to split hairs about this as you say. And you are NEVER supposed to admit to anything. She is the only one who was handed a ticket. No one else in the car got one and yes maybe they will get one in the mail. My daughter was not drinking and even told the officer to give her a breathilizer. I don't know why he didn't test all of them. She also told me that the officer found full beer cans in the back seat and made the boy dump them out and then gave him a ticket for littering!! The driver also was not drinking as she has a broken left foot. The JAR was left in the front seat from earlier that day in the DRIVERS car. As a matter of fact I do believe my daughter because she has always been honest about everything. The officer was irritated with her because she kept saying no to everything. Innocent til proven guilty right? You never admit to anything until you get a lawyer but unfortunately we cant afford one and I have no clue how much one would cost for this. And shes not going to ask her college for help..and then have something happen to her scholarships etc..for asking and then finding out about this. They were 40 minutes away from her school when this happened and she called me right before the officer let them leave. Now do you think they would let the driver drive and leave there if she was intoxicated?? NO

 

[justalayman]

I don't recall you saying anything about anybody being intoxicated.

Possession of alcohol by a minor is illegal
An unsealed container of an alcoholic beverage is illegal


Your daughter appears to be guilty of both

If she cannot afford an attorney she can apply for a public defender

 

[quincy]

I definitely am not trying to split hairs about this as you say. And you are NEVER supposed to admit to anything. She is the only one who was handed a ticket. No one else in the car got one and yes maybe they will get one in the mail. My daughter was not drinking and even told the officer to give her a breathilizer. I don't know why he didn't test all of them. She also told me that the officer found full beer cans in the back seat and made the boy dump them out and then gave him a ticket for littering!! The driver also was not drinking as she has a broken left foot. The JAR was left in the front seat from earlier that day in the DRIVERS car. As a matter of fact I do believe my daughter because she has always been honest about everything. The officer was irritated with her because she kept saying no to everything. Innocent til proven guilty right? You never admit to anything until you get a lawyer but unfortunately we cant afford one and I have no clue how much one would cost for this. And shes not going to ask her college for help..and then have something happen to her scholarships etc..for asking and then finding out about this. They were 40 minutes away from her school when this happened and she called me right before the officer let them leave. Now do you think they would let the driver drive and leave there if she was intoxicated?? NO

I believe it is a mistake for your daughter to not have a lawyer. Free legal assistance is available to the students for alcohol offenses. These are not uncommon offenses for students.

If your daughter is reluctant to seek help from the college legal aid department (and I can almost guarantee the school already knows of the charges), she can probably find an attorney in her college town who offers payment plans to fit her student budget.

Your daughter appears to have been rightly charged. You have been provided the laws and directed to resources in the city where she and her friends were stopped and charged. You know we all advise your daughter consult with an attorney in Mt. Pleasant.

What you decide to do with this information, however, is entirely up to you and your daughter.

As a note: You originally said no one else in the car received a ticket and now you say one passenger received a ticket for littering. Ignoring the fact that only an idiot would toss an empty beer can on the ground, I additionally advise your daughter not lie to any attorney she sees, if she decides to take our advice to consult with one (nor should you lie in a misguided attempt to help your daughter evade responsibility for her poor choices).

Good luck.