Contempt of court for telling kids the truth?

[Just Blue]

I would love to know the ages of the children that were at "story time" with OP.

 

[not2cleverRed]

I would love to know the ages of the children that were at "story time" with OP.

I'm hoping her userid isn't her real name or a close variant.

 

[Sara Abrams]

Thank you all for your replies.

My name is most definitely not my username. The children are both in third grade. The books I read to them are "My Daddy Loves Me, My Daddy Has a Disease" and "Children Can Cope With Grief From Drug and Alcohol Abuse." I did not go into detail and say which drugs he is using or how.

I noticed none of you mentioned the fact that the recording is illegal, and I'm assuming that's because it won't matter, correct? At least not in this motion? I would have to object to it, and quite frankly I am not sure I want to... he is usually quite charming and convincing, but the transcript seems to display his crazy quite nicely. Also, I am hoping to point out that this is not even close to how bad the conversations normally are with the children, and if this is a conversation he is comfortable submitting to the court, imagine how bad the others might be.

Yes, I can see how saying "Daddy is a meth addict" paints him in a negative light. But if I'm saying he loves them but has a disease, and that there is help for people in his situation is that really negative? Remember, he stopped exercising his supervised visitations for 5 months straight. Understandably, they wondered why- and why he even had supervised visitation in the first place. Where does the "children's best interest" standard come in here? It seems to me to be incredibly emotionally damaging to leave them hanging in this way.

Now, he is basing this entire action on hearsay, correct? Perhaps even double hearsay, in that not only is it an out of court statement, but it's a statement of a statement (my child saying I said such and such). Whether or not I truly said this is up for debate. However, there will be no debate as to whether or not HE truly said that I was "lying" and "manipulating his drug tests". Nevertheless, the focus will be on my wrongdoing, not his, correct? And in order to focus on that, I would have to file my own contempt motion?

Thank you so much

 

[stealth2]

The times I overheard their conversations they caused me severe distress. He'd tell them things like, "Just you wait and see. This is all your mom's fault. The truth will come out. You'll be living with me soon." It got to the point where I would go to my room, lock the door, and put a pillow over my head and sing while they spoke. I was so afraid that I'd overhear what he was telling them and try to take the phone, and that this would be a violation of our order (not to interfere with other parent's phone call).

I'm curious how you'd "overhear" their conversations to this extent. Are they on speakerphone? A judge *could* take exception to that.

Did the kids come to you with concerns about their father? Or did you choose to just take the bull by the horns? A judge may be more lenient with the former situation.

I can tell you that, when my kids came to me with concerns regarding what their Dad may or may not have said to them about me/our situation, I tried to keep it to "We both love you and wants what best. We're just having trouble agreeing on what that is." and "Everyone sees things differently. You know when you're arguing, and I ask you to tell me about what? Neither of you see it the same way." It's the same with me and Dad - we're both telling the story the way we see it. But no matter what, we both love you and everything will be okay."

It might not be bad for you to look into some counseling for them AND you. A good therapist can help you find more effective ways to help your kids cope. And it surely won't look bad in court...

 

[LdiJ]

Thank you all for your replies.

My name is most definitely not my username. The children are both in third grade. The books I read to them are "My Daddy Loves Me, My Daddy Has a Disease" and "Children Can Cope With Grief From Drug and Alcohol Abuse." I did not go into detail and say which drugs he is using or how.

I noticed none of you mentioned the fact that the recording is illegal, and I'm assuming that's because it won't matter, correct? At least not in this motion? I would have to object to it, and quite frankly I am not sure I want to... he is usually quite charming and convincing, but the transcript seems to display his crazy quite nicely. Also, I am hoping to point out that this is not even close to how bad the conversations normally are with the children, and if this is a conversation he is comfortable submitting to the court, imagine how bad the others might be.

Yes, I can see how saying "Daddy is a meth addict" paints him in a negative light. But if I'm saying he loves them but has a disease, and that there is help for people in his situation is that really negative? Remember, he stopped exercising his supervised visitations for 5 months straight. Understandably, they wondered why- and why he even had supervised visitation in the first place. Where does the "children's best interest" standard come in here? It seems to me to be incredibly emotionally damaging to leave them hanging in this way.

Now, he is basing this entire action on hearsay, correct? Perhaps even double hearsay, in that not only is it an out of court statement, but it's a statement of a statement (my child saying I said such and such). Whether or not I truly said this is up for debate. However, there will be no debate as to whether or not HE truly said that I was "lying" and "manipulating his drug tests". Nevertheless, the focus will be on my wrongdoing, not his, correct? And in order to focus on that, I would have to file my own contempt motion?

Thank you so much

Stealth offered you some good advice. I am going to comment only on the bolded. Yes, in order for dad's wrongdoings to come into focus, you would have to respond with a contempt motion of your own. Now, that doesn't mean that the judge won't notice dad's wrongdoing on his conversation transcript and seriously take that into consideration when deciding contempt against you. It means that the judge won't be able to make orders regarding dad, because you have not asked the judge to do so.

 

[not2cleverRed]

What is the name of your state?CA

My ex husband has professional supervised visitation due to his long-term methamphetamine addiction and placing our children in unsafe situations. He has been hell-bent on revenge ever since I filed for divorce 3 years ago, and has been recording his own conversations with the children for that long. He has admitted to this in three separate pleadings, one for each year. I was told by my attorney that even though he has professional supervised visits, I still had to allow phone calls. So I did, though I never felt comfortable (I have now been told by a different attorney that she was wrong- who to trust?)

Nearly every night he'd call our children. The times I overheard their conversations they caused me severe distress. He'd tell them things like, "Just you wait and see. This is all your mom's fault. The truth will come out. You'll be living with me soon." It got to the point where I would go to my room, lock the door, and put a pillow over my head and sing while they spoke. I was so afraid that I'd overhear what he was telling them and try to take the phone, and that this would be a violation of our order (not to interfere with other parent's phone call).

After being given supervised visitation, he only ended up exercising it for one month. He went 3 months without seeing them, and they'd tell me things like, "Dad told us you're keeping us from him. Dad told us you're lying to the courts."

Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. I bought two children's books on parental drug abuse. I read them to them, and then asked, "Do you know why I read you these stories? Your dad has a drug problem." I explained that there is help out there for people who suffer from this disease.

That night my son talked to him on the phone and told him what I'd said. I got a text from him that I'd violated our order (not to disparage other parent/talk about court case). He has now filed contempt of court for that matter alone. In his affidavit he included a transcript of the conversation he had with our son. In it, he tells my son that he doesn't have a drug problem, that in fact I manipulated his drug tests and that my son will find this all out soon.

He has failed 11 drug tests in one year. I cannot believe that his attorney allowed him to put this motion through. It seems incredibly unethical, especially given the fact that the recording is illegal. It also starts at the 0:00 mark, which shows he was already prepared to record.

I'm so confused. I feel as if I don't have any rights. He's committed so many crimes against me, but every time I report them to the police they say these are civil issues. I feel if the more crimes of his I report the worse I make myself look- that I just look crazy and out to get him. But how can I live like this? I have thought about stooping to his level and recording calls as well, but I don't feel right about it and am worried I would get in trouble.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Sounds like Dad has been disparaging you and talking about the court case with the children. As others have pointed out, definitely respond and counter claim/motion.

It would have been better if you had just throw those books in with a random group of books that you read to them... Or gotten some books at their reading level that happened to have parents/characters with substance abuse issues. And then said nothing about how it relates to their situation. ("Because of Winn Dixie", for example, is an age appropriate chapter book, for example, whose protagonist has been abandoned by her mother, and befriends a recovering alcoholic neighbor. Your local librarian in the children's section should know many more.) They would figure it out on their own soon enough.

Stealth's advice is great! Stealth is very stealthy, by nature.

I used similar responses with my child during my divorce. It gave my ex very little ammo in trial: 1) he complained about how little time he had, I had been going by the court order which had limited hours per the GAL's recommendation, 2) I had copies of police reports, the order of protection, and the indicated report from CPS that he claimed his former lawyer got "thrown out" - he had proof of nothing, 3) he tried to include testimony that our child wanted to spend more time with him, and was not allowed. Granted, this was NY, not CA, but I suspect that the states are not entirely dissimilar in how they handle such legal issues: patience, following the rules, and putting your best foot forward is to your benefit.

 

[Sara Abrams]

I'm curious how you'd "overhear" their conversations to this extent. Are they on speakerphone? A judge *could* take exception to that.

Did the kids come to you with concerns about their father? Or did you choose to just take the bull by the horns? A judge may be more lenient with the former situation.

I can tell you that, when my kids came to me with concerns regarding what their Dad may or may not have said to them about me/our situation, I tried to keep it to "We both love you and wants what best. We're just having trouble agreeing on what that is." and "Everyone sees things differently. You know when you're arguing, and I ask you to tell me about what? Neither of you see it the same way." It's the same with me and Dad - we're both telling the story the way we see it. But no matter what, we both love you and everything will be okay."

It might not be bad for you to look into some counseling for them AND you. A good therapist can help you find more effective ways to help your kids cope. And it surely won't look bad in court...

I never intentionally eavesdropped and made a conscious effort to be out of the room when they spoke. Sometimes that wasn't possible, but I certainly did not want to hear any of the nonsense he was telling them. The children were coming to me after many conversations saying, "Dad said such and such." They had MANY questions, especially about what was going on before he got supervised visitation (why were dad's friends always throwing up/sleeping in weird places like the kitchen floor/why did they spend so much time in the bathroom, etc.)

The children and I were in counseling up until just months before this happened (I started working more to make up for him not paying child support and did not have time to continue the appointments). I had asked their counselor before how she thought I should approach this issue and she said I should tell them there is a "safety concern". I never said that- I almost feel like that would have gotten me in more trouble. And wouldn't the obvious next question from the children be, "Well, what is the safety concern?" I also asked CPS what I should tell the children when they got involved in the case. They told me I should say there was a "concern by law enforcement", which I felt was even worse. My own counselor was very adamant that I should tell them the truth- that they had a right to know what was happening, and that this was harmful to them. Her viewpoint was that I was protecting him to my own detriment.

Anyway, what will happen at the order to show cause? I believe I have to plead guilty or not guilty, correct? If so, from what I've read I should plead not guilty, as I can always change my plea later on. What say ye?

 

[stealth2]

It can be *really* hard to walk the higher road, and I think we all slip at times - I suspect judges are willing to overlook it when it's overwhelmingly surrounded by doing better. None of us can be perfect. But we can pick ourselves up, dust off, and strive to be better moving forward. Both of my girls know (LOL OH do they know!) that I'm not perfect, but they also know I keep trying. That's all that matters.

 

[stealth2]

I never intentionally eavesdropped and made a conscious effort to be out of the room when they spoke. Sometimes that wasn't possible, but I certainly did not want to hear any of the nonsense he was telling them. The children were coming to me after many conversations saying, "Dad said such and such." They had MANY questions, especially about what was going on before he got supervised visitation (why were dad's friends always throwing up/sleeping in weird places like the kitchen floor/why did they spend so much time in the bathroom, etc.)

The children and I were in counseling up until just months before this happened (I started working more to make up for him not paying child support and did not have time to continue the appointments). I had asked their counselor before how she thought I should approach this issue and she said I should tell them there is a "safety concern". I never said that- I almost feel like that would have gotten me in more trouble. And wouldn't the obvious next question from the children be, "Well, what is the safety concern?" I also asked CPS what I should tell the children when they got involved in the case. They told me I should say there was a "concern by law enforcement", which I felt was even worse. My own counselor was very adamant that I should tell them the truth- that they had a right to know what was happening, and that this was harmful to them. Her viewpoint was that I was protecting him to my own detriment.

Anyway, what will happen at the order to show cause? I believe I have to plead guilty or not guilty, correct? If so, from what I've read I should plead not guilty, as I can always change my plea later on. What say ye?

Honestly? I think your counselor steered you wrong. I likely would have answered as their counselor recommended and replied to further questions with something like "Dad's got some stuff going on that makes it hard from him to be as good a Dad as he'd like to be." Further questions? "Well, maybe that's something you should talk to <counselor> or Dad about."

I'd be pleading not guilty while building my defense.

 

[laurakaye]

Truth is not disparagement...and, as I said, this is the sort of thing that the children do eventually need to learn about their parents, if for no other reason than to ensure that they do not follow the same path. In addition, as I said before, its absolutely NOT criminal contempt.

Just some thoughts from a someone who had to co-parent for many years with an active alcoholic. Letting the kids learn about the disease of addiction (I took my kids to Ala-teen meetings; I went to Al-Anon) is a way for them to understand that their parent (in my case, their dad) is battling a disease (truth) and while it doesn't make them a bad person (truth), it may cause him to act in bad ways (truth). It's important for the kids to be able to separate the disease from the person. Believe me, there were many times I wanted to pull my hair out and scream, but that wasn't in the best interest of my kids.

My ex would often threaten to sue for custody. I didn't fight with him about it. I figured if he did, the courts would look at our history and decide who was better suited to be the custodial parent. My ex never followed through with his threats. My guess is he won't follow through with the court hearing. If he does, based on what you've said and assuming it's true, I can't imagine it will go well for him.

 

[stealth2]

Just some thoughts from a someone who had to co-parent for many years with an active alcoholic. Letting the kids learn about the disease of addiction (I took my kids to Ala-teen meetings; I went to Al-Anon) is a way for them to understand that their parent (in my case, their dad) is battling a disease (truth) and while it doesn't make them a bad person (truth), it may cause him to act in bad ways (truth). It's important for the kids to be able to separate the disease from the person. Believe me, there were many times I wanted to pull my hair out and scream, but that wasn't in the best interest of my kids.

My ex would often threaten to sue for custody. I didn't fight with him about it. I figured if he did, the courts would look at our history and decide who was better suited to be the custodial parent. My ex never followed through with his threats. My guess is he won't follow through with the court hearing. If he does, based on what you've said and assuming it's true, I can't imagine it will go well for him.

Presumably, your kids were teens. These are ~8yo. Bit different.

 

[laurakaye]

Actually, my children were quite young when we separated, ranging in age from two to six, along with my 13 year old step-daughter (his daughter, of course) who stayed with me until she went to college. The 13 year old was in Ala-teen. The six year old was in the younger group, Ala-tot. Yes, there really is such a thing.

 

[Sara Abrams]

Thanks all.

One thing I'm thinking:
Our order states that "neither parent should interfere with the children's phone calls". Note it does not state that we shouldn't interfere with the OTHER parent's phone calls- just the children's. So, in addition to ex illegally recording phone their phone calls, wouldn't he also be in violation of that section?

 

[Sara Abrams]

I'm so confused. I had called the family law facilitator's office the day I got this and asked if they could help me. They told me they did not help with contempt motions, but that I would be appointed an attorney on my court date. They said I do not need to do anything at this time. I even talked to the other family law facilitator who agreed. But I'm so scared- I keep to respond to the motion, otherwise the court may grant it. Could the family law facilitators be wrong? So what happens? Is the judge just going to ask me to plead, then appoint me an attorney, and then set another court date?

 

[Just Blue]

I'm so confused. I had called the family law facilitator's office the day I got this and asked if they could help me. They told me they did not help with contempt motions, but that I would be appointed an attorney on my court date. They said I do not need to do anything at this time. I even talked to the other family law facilitator who agreed. But I'm so scared- I keep to respond to the motion, otherwise the court may grant it. Could the family law facilitators be wrong? So what happens? Is the judge just going to ask me to plead, then appoint me an attorney, and then set another court date?

Take all the paperwork and bring it to a Family Law attorney to review and advise. You can like have that done for just a couple of hundred dollars.