Question about unemployment

[isis297]

What is the name of your state? NY

I just want to make sure I am understanding...if any unused vacation time is paid out, that does NOT get reported to unemployment, correct? We were never given an employee handbook and were simply told that benefits start immediately after hire. I have to look back at my notes, but I think we were to get 1 week per year. I was told vacation was earned per calendar year so I should have a week from last year and a week from this year, correct? It is my understanding that in NY unused vacation time is to be paid out and if it is not addressed it needs to be paid out.

Also, when filing a claim it says you have to report any income earned during that week even if working part time but that self employment does NOT get reported, correct? So if I were to do some independent contractor work while I'm trying to find a full time job again that doesn't get reported.

I just want to make sure I understand so I do things the way they are supposed to be done. Thank you.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Any pay gets reported to the UI agency.

NY does allow an employer to have a policy where an employee forfeits accrued vacation. We don't have your former employer's policy either.

You are wrong about not having to report self employment.

From the handbook https://labor.ny.gov/ui/claimantinfo/Claimant Handbook - Languages.shtm

• You must report any work. When you claim weekly benefits, you must tell us about any work, including part-time or temporary work, unpaid jobs or self-employment – even if you worked for less than an hour on a given day.

 

[isis297]

Already I'm confused. That handbook says the maximum amount is $435 for example. I received a letter stating I was eligible for $450, but the site doesn't reference the amount yet. I don't know if that's because they are giving my former employer a chance to appeal or what.

I can't look at the screen again because I already claimed for this week so I will have to wait until next week and take a screen shot. It's weird that when I clicked on vacation time, it specifically said does NOT include accrued vacation time and specifically said not self employment.

 

[adjusterjack]

All you can do is what the online screens tell you to do and hope for the best.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

I'm not from NY nor do I deal with NY UI cases very often. The NY handbook is pretty clear about self-employment and every state I do deal with requires it as well.

THink about it. If they don't require self-employment to be reported anyone that starts a business when receiving UI is being subsidized by the state.

 

[commentator]

Okay, when you stop working, and you file a claim, you are told about certification for weeks of benefits. All weeks, for unemployment purposes, in all states, run from Sunday through Saturday (with some very rare exceptions). All certifications you make refer to work done during the week you are certifying for, specifically. They are not interested in your income, as such, during that week, just pay that you have been paid, or will be paid at some time (regardless of when) that you made by working THAT WEEK you are doing the certification for.

Thus, if the company rattles around and a week after you stop working, gets you your last paycheck, or money from your vacation weeks, during the first or second week you are not working, you are not to report that money because you did not work out that money that week. If you won the scratch off that week, or mowed your neighbor's lawn for pay, or were paid for some weeks of owed wages that you'd actually worked out three or four months earlier, that is not to be considered work you have done during that week you are certifying for that must be reported as wages earned that week.

If you do your second week's certification, and you've received this vacation pay check and you (incorrectly I believe) report it as wages worked out that week, it will simply stop your claim cold. They don't know anything except that perhaps you've gone to work at another job and had worked all that week and are done with unemployment benefits now forever. Before you could make a next week's certification, you'd have to go in and re-open your claim. This would simply start the process again and you would have missed a week's being certified, and possibly getting restarted again for a while. And they are NOT interested in work you're being paid for or vacation time you're being paid for that was done a long time ago.

But I am in favor of your, just for the sake of correctness, you call someone in the actual system, not on line, or if there's an on line question section, or customer service section, you need to clear this specific question with a department of labor in your state person. Preferably a living human being in the system. Hold the line if you have to. But they're the ones to ask specifically. The same goes for working as a 1099 for someone. Discuss it with them, before reporting it or not reporting it. In each case, take a note of when you talked with someone, who you talked with, and what they told you.

Unemployment insurance is not a subsidy for anyone based on their needs or how much money you had to live on this week. It's based on whether you are separated from an employer through no fault of your own, and that you are able, available and actively seeking other equivalent work during that specific week you are certifying for. If you removed yourself from the labor force by working at your own business full time, you'd be disqualifying yourself not based on income earned, but from availability for equivalent. If you open your own business, you're removing yourself from seeking and being willing to accept another job. In any thing of this sort that you do or have questions about, again, run it by the unemployment insurance section for your state for a specific answer in your case. Youre jumping into this without real good understanding of the process from just reading the material. You also don't have enough specific information about this contract work you might do later right now.

At the beginning of your claim, you will be given or mailed or screened a personal Monetary Determination. This will show what, specifically, you will be allowed to draw based on your counted quarters of work. It will be something like, $435 for 26 weeks or a total amount of $11,310. If you did not have this eligibility, there'd be no reason to go further. But then, after your claim has set up monetarily, you begin making the weekly certifications, and then you should be started on the process of the system determining if you qualify for benefits based on your reason for separation. That's another ball of wax entirely.

You will have a waiting week first, that is one week that you serve and certify for that you will not be paid for. Then, if yours is a simple lack of work lay off claim, you'd be paid the first time after the second week's certification goes in. However, if you do not have a simple claim, if you were terminated for cause or quit your job, the employer will be contacted, the determination must be made, using what you say and what they say, whether or not youIf 'll be approved to receive benefits for the weeks of certification you have made. Generally, in a clean claim, you may receive your first pay in three to four weeks. In a contested claim, with appeals involved, four to six weeks is pretty quick. Keep making the weekly certifications.

Speak to someone in the agency about exactly what to do with reporting the vacation money. If you've already reported it, speak to them about the situation and how to reopen your claim.

 

[Chyvan]

if I were to do some independent contractor work while I'm trying to find a full time job

Don't. NY is brutal. They'll label you as someone that's "joined the ranks of the self employed" so fast, it'll make your head spin. You'll be cut off, and then you'll be mad. You'll have thought you did the right thing, but it'll cost you.

https://www.labor.ny.gov/ui/aso/775.shtm
#2, 5 and 6 did get their benefits restored, but they were all denied initially and had to appeal. So if you need your UI on time, then you can't afford to dip your toe into anything that looks like self employment.

If you want to try to be self-employed in NY and keep your UI, you are required to sign up and get into the SEAP.

NY also has a brutal partial UI formula. Do NOT look for part-time work. Do not look for stop gap work. You can end up working and getting less than you'd get on UI. Get a REAL job that gets you off the system and is about as good or BETTER than you had before.

 

[isis297]

I appreciate it. I did call someone at DOL Friday. She said that all income was supposed to be reported including unused vacation time which didn't coincide with anything I had read on the DOL site. She suggested in the end that I email and ask. The site says what you said though.

In the end, I don't know whether I'm due my unused vacation time or not. In speaking with the representative, she said that because I never received anything in writing while I was an employee such as a handbook spelling out what happens when someone is terminated that I could open an investigation through the DOL. When I asked my former boss about it, he only said that further correspondence would be done via certified mail which tells me he has no intention of paying it and honestly, knowing him, I don't know that I want to accept the certified letter.

I received a letter telling me what my benefits would be, but nothing is showing up in my stats on the DOL site. I'm wondering if he is appealing it. I'm trying to find out how long he has to do so. I don't know how he can. He said in my letter that it wasn't cost effective to have someone in my position and that if I was interested in coming to work for him as an independent contractor he was open to discussing that. In reality, I was furloughed the week before because he didn't have any money (lack of field work) to pay anybody so we were all furloughed that week. Then suddenly I was let go.

 

[isis297]

I take that back. Now it's showing the weekly amount. Does that mean it's been approved or could he still try to appeal it?

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

Even if approved, at this point he can likely still appeal.

 

[commentator]

Your amount you will receive, your monetary determination, is not the same thing as your claim being approved. Whether or not your status in the computer is showing anything isn't how you'll find out whether you're approved or not. The monetary determination just means you have a claim to draw. The way you would know if your employer has appealed is if you are called and asked for more information or perhaps not. It's not necessary you know, in the beginning. You will receive an initial decision usually by mail within a few weeks of filing the claim, telling you of approval or disapproval, and your appeal rights.

The status on the computer may or may not update to tell you something. Meantime you just keep making the certifications. The thing is, the state has been given, by law, a certain amount of time, usually about two weeks, in which to make an initial decision on whether the claim is approved or denied. Within that time frame, the information provided by you about why you are not working and the reason that the employer says you are not working are compared by someone in the agency. If there is a discrepancy in the reason given (it costs the employer money if you are approved to draw, so they aren't happy about it, usually) the agency does an investigation. Other than cooperating iwth them if they re-contact you, there's nothing you need to do except make your weekly certifications. Then they make what they call an initial decision. If you are approved, at this point, they start releasing weekly checks for whichever weeks you are due, for which you have already certified.

The employer is notified of this decision, and you are notified of this decision. Both of you are told that you have a set amount of time in which to appeal this decision, (usually 15 days) and how to file an appeal. If an appeal is not filed, the decision stands and in most cases cannot be appealed later. If an appeal is filed by either party during that time given, a hearing will be held, with both you and the employer notified and you'll either be appealing their decision to deny benefits or the employer will be appealing the decision to grant benefits.

But since this completely has not happened yet, we're not going any further with this whole thing. It's just yes, the employer could very well appeal the decision to grant you benefits. It's their right, as it would be your right to appeal the decision if you are denied benefits based on what the employer told the agency. Neither party has more credibility, or gets more control over whether or not you get benefits once the claim is begun.

But meantime, wait, and keep filing your weekly certifications. I'm a little confused because you spent so much time wanting to know about vacation pay, (which I do maintain that you do not report as wages, but do ask at the email site provided and do come back to discuss it IF YOU WERE TO RECEIVE IT) since as you said, you have not received it and probably won't. So it isn't an issue with your weekly certifications, is it? By the way, whether your former employer is sending you notice of that he's not paying vacation hours out or whatever, there is very rarely any advantage to be gained by not accepting a certified letter. In fact, IMHO it's pretty a pretty silly thing to do.

 

[isis297]

Even if approved, at this point he can likely still appeal.

How long does he have to do that? I filed on 4/22.

 

[isis297]

Your amount you will receive, your monetary determination, is not the same thing as your claim being approved. Whether or not your status in the computer is showing anything isn't how you'll find out whether you're approved or not. The monetary determination just means you have a claim to draw. The way you would know if your employer has appealed is if you are called and asked for more information or perhaps not. It's not necessary you know, in the beginning. You will receive an initial decision usually by mail within a few weeks of filing the claim, telling you of approval or disapproval, and your appeal rights.

The status on the computer may or may not update to tell you something. Meantime you just keep making the certifications. The thing is, the state has been given, by law, a certain amount of time, usually about two weeks, in which to make an initial decision on whether the claim is approved or denied. Within that time frame, the information provided by you about why you are not working and the reason that the employer says you are not working are compared by someone in the agency. If there is a discrepancy in the reason given (it costs the employer money if you are approved to draw, so they aren't happy about it, usually) the agency does an investigation. Other than cooperating iwth them if they re-contact you, there's nothing you need to do except make your weekly certifications. Then they make what they call an initial decision. If you are approved, at this point, they start releasing weekly checks for whichever weeks you are due, for which you have already certified.

The employer is notified of this decision, and you are notified of this decision. Both of you are told that you have a set amount of time in which to appeal this decision, (usually 15 days) and how to file an appeal. If an appeal is not filed, the decision stands and in most cases cannot be appealed later. If an appeal is filed by either party during that time given, a hearing will be held, with both you and the employer notified and you'll either be appealing their decision to deny benefits or the employer will be appealing the decision to grant benefits.

But since this completely has not happened yet, we're not going any further with this whole thing. It's just yes, the employer could very well appeal the decision to grant you benefits. It's their right, as it would be your right to appeal the decision if you are denied benefits based on what the employer told the agency. Neither party has more credibility, or gets more control over whether or not you get benefits once the claim is begun.

But meantime, wait, and keep filing your weekly certifications. I'm a little confused because you spent so much time wanting to know about vacation pay, (which I do maintain that you do not report as wages, but do ask at the email site provided and do come back to discuss it IF YOU WERE TO RECEIVE IT) since as you said, you have not received it and probably won't. So it isn't an issue with your weekly certifications, is it? By the way, whether your former employer is sending you notice of that he's not paying vacation hours out or whatever, there is very rarely any advantage to be gained by not accepting a certified letter. In fact, IMHO it's pretty a pretty silly thing to do.

My first payment was released and received yesterday. So that means they approved it but my former boss could still appeal it at this time? So 15 days from now I will know if I'm truly going to keep receiving the unemployment?

I was trying to find out about the vacation pay. The unemployment I knew would come down to the DOL.

You mentioned that receiving benefits costs the employer. It costs them from the insurance they have paid and the fact that because there is a paid out claim their rate will go up correct? It doesn't come out of his bank account each week though right? I'm just wondering because his bank account has been in trouble because of lack of work.

I guess the whole accepting the certified letter makes me nervous because I've seen my former boss in action against other people if he feels it is going to cost him anything. God only knows what he would put in that letter. I have no doubt he was not happy that I asked about the vacation time in the first place hence the "further correspondence will be received via certified mail".

 

[Zigner]

You mentioned that receiving benefits costs the employer. It costs them from the insurance they have paid and the fact that because there is a paid out claim their rate will go up correct? It doesn't come out of his bank account each week though right? I'm just wondering because his bank account has been in trouble because of lack of work.

Yes, the cost is in the form of increased rates, not a direct payment from their bank account.

I guess the whole accepting the certified letter makes me nervous because I've seen my former boss in action against other people if he feels it is going to cost him anything. God only knows what he would put in that letter. I have no doubt he was not happy that I asked about the vacation time in the first place hence the "further correspondence will be received via certified mail".

Perhaps it's an offer to pay you all that is due, plus some extra for your trouble... It's never wise to ignore matters, especially if some requirement is met simply by mailing the letter, as opposed to the person receiving it.

 

[commentator]

You mentioned that receiving benefits costs the employer. It costs them from the insurance they have paid and the fact that because there is a paid out claim their rate will go up correct? It doesn't come out of his bank account each week though right? I'm just wondering because his bank account has been in trouble because of lack of work.

That's it, exactly, they have been paying in employer taxes as long as they have had a payroll. This money is collected quarterly by the state's system. If it is never used, it goes into a general pool. If it is used, it causes the employer's unemployment tax rate to rise slightly. Usually, in certain types of businesses (such as construction, seasonal, etc.) the rates are set quite high in the first place, so that whether someone draws benefits or not are not such a huge issue. These people pay a lot less attention to whether someone draws or not, and usually don't protest claims quite so readily.

And even if he hadn't been paying in appropriately, and you had filed a claim you would've been able to draw from that general pool that I mentioned, and the unemployment tax people would be after the employer without affecting what you would be drawing. The time of your being at the mercy of the whims of this particular employer are over, pretty much. Stop worrying! Move on.

It sounds like you've been approved for unemployment on the first appeal, without further questioning from the adjudicator who approved the claim. This indicates, to me that there was no issue raised with your reason for separation, and this indicates they might be less likely to mount an appeal. It also indicates that if one was raised, they'd have less of a chance to have the decision overturned, have apparently used a general "out of work through no fault of their own" reason when asked why you were let go in the first place.

From the sound of things, with his business going under, etc. your employer may perceive your getting gone with unemployment (a source of money he cannot access any other way) as a winning solution to get rid of you, and may have decided not to protest the claim at all. In any case, if he does appeal, you'll be informed. Come back and ask what to do in this case. Meantime, be looking for another job and hopefully you will move forward quickly. Unemployment insurance is generally less than you can make working, and it is always finte, it will definitely end soon, whether you've found new employment or not.

I wouldn't look for my vacation pay if I were you, but for heaven's sake, accept and read those certified letters, if you were to get one. It's always better to KNOW what is going on instead of sitting around angst-ing and overthinking about possible scenarios. Actually, once he has committed to a reason for termination, the employer can't suddenly change it and go into the unemployment hearing saying you were fired for some other new reason and take your unemployment away from you easily. So he can't "do something terrible" to you in that way.

I would suggest that this stuff about the certified letter was just a throw-away statement which indicated that the employer wasn't going to answer your questions about whether or not you'd be getting your vacation pay at that time. As in "I really can't say, and all future communication with you will be by certified letter" because he didn't want to fool with you right then. Not because he could say or do something terrible to you from a distance. And it would not be in any way smart to refuse to accept anything sent to you because you fear what he might say or do. Maybe he's planning to take bankruptcy and thinking that will excuse him from paying vacation pay to former employees, but isn't sure yet. But its always to your advantage to know what is going on, as much as possible.

You sort of knew he wasn't going to give you lots of severance and a hearty best wishes and a great future references, because what a coincidence you were working for a jerk. Sometimes that happens. But it doesn't mean you sit around quivering in fear of what they might do.
Move on and do better.