Visitation and child manipulation

[Jamackle86]

What is the name of your state? IL

my ex is a bipolar (actual diagnosis) alcoholic who quit drinking about 4 months ago for her new boyfriend who doesn’t drink. We have joint custody of our 10 yr old Daughter - she is the custodial parent - I have visitation every Wed and every other weekend. She has a history of arguing with me and others when drunk - her own family has called the police on her many times over the years. Our relationship ended over her constant drunken rages, including a few where she physically attacked me and was arrested for domestic abuse. When she’s in a good mood I’m the greatest father in the world and she wants to be friends, otherwise I’m the enemy and she tells my daughter i don’t care about her and her current boyfriend is more of a father to her than I am.

Covid exposures on both sides interrupted my visitation schedule, but In June we were starting to get back to normal. Then in Aug my daughter started having plans with her new best friend on my weekends. At first I told her it was ok to stay home and have fun with her new friend, but it started being an issue every time and she stopped coming over. I asked my ex to stop allowing her to make plans on my weekends but that went nowhere. So I started allowing the friend to come over too so I could see my daughter. We did that a few times and now suddenly my ex is telling me my daughter never wants to come over again and refuses to speak to me because I am always drunk when she’s over. This is just not true. The last weekend she was here I had a few beers because we had a bonfire s’mores party with about 6 other adults, but I was not drunk. I don‘t even drink on a regular basis, I’m a social drinker and my Ex knows this from our years together.

My ex drills my daughter for details of what goes on at my house. She’s always looking for things to use against me so she can tell my daughter I’m a bad parent and threaten I’ll never see her again. I think she has gotten preachy about drinking Because she quit and when she found out I had a few beers in front of our daughter she’s using to manipulated my daughter into thinking I have a huge drinking problem and because of that she shouldn’t come over anymore. I tried to talk to my daughter to reassure her I don’t have a drinking problem and will never drink in front of her if it bothers her, but my ex has her conditioned to think I would deny having a drinking problem because I’m a liar. So now I can’t even talk to my daughter at all. She gets so nervous and upset so I back off.

Now my ex is on an angry streak and is telling me she’s getting a protective order against me and I’m never seeing my daughter ever again. She had no reason for a protective order, this is just a typical threat she uses when angry. I don’t harass her by phone and have never physically abused her. I don’t even want to talk to her on the phone because she is so hostile towards me. I’m texting her that I want to see my daughter. She simply does not respond. We have had no physical contact for years....when I see her I’m in my car waiting To pick up or drop off my daughter.

What steps can I take to see my daughter again? Can a GAL be used for a situation like this? Can I get my daughter into counseling to repair the damage to our relationship? What can be done when dealing with a bipolar parent who manipulates a child into thinking the other parent is a bad person who doesn’t care about them?

 

[stealth2]

You have a court order - use it. Show up for every parenting time you are provided with via the order. Every time Mom refuses access, call the police to document it - make sure you have your order. If Mom continues to defy the order? File against her for contempt.

And I'd abstain from alcohol completely for now. Including having any in your home.

 

[Just Blue]

https://forum.freeadvice.com/threads/mom-used-9-yr-olds-phone-to-text-argue-with-her-bf.658453/

Some background.

 

[Jamackle86]

Totally in agreement on alcohol. And yes, we have a bad history per the background just added. I know there are 2 sides to every story and I’m not perfect, but trust me when I say my only interest here is seeing my daughter and I feel like her mom is always trying to sabotage our relationship. I really feel Ike she is doing some damage by telling my daughter I don’t care about her and now telling her it’s ok to not see me. I know there are steps I can take to visit my daughter, but now there’s the issue of her not wanting to come over at all according to her mom. When I ask to speak to my daughter her mom says she refuses to talk to me.

I’m more concerned about how to handle the manipulation issue. I don’t want to force my child to talk about it because she gets nervous and uncomfortable, but I feel if we don’t talk about some real damage is being done to our relationship.

 

[bcr229]

I’m more concerned about how to handle the manipulation issue. I don’t want to force my child to talk about it because she gets nervous and uncomfortable, but I feel if we don’t talk about some real damage is being done to our relationship.

Counseling would not be a bad idea.

Definitely follow the advice given by stealth2. Your ex and your daughter need to understand that court orders are exactly that, they are not suggestions.

 

[t74]

I assume you have joint legal; you should have a relationship with her school. If she is back in physical school, have the counselor/social worker speak with her to assess whether she needs more intensive counseling. As mandated reporters, their concerns carry more weight than that of a parent in a contentious coparenting situation if a report to child services becomes necessary.

I am concerned about your comments regarding the new boyfriends, her interrogating the child about your activities, and her threats of protective orders. You need your own counselor experienced in difficult coparenting relationships to help you develop strategies for dealing with various situations with mom and child.

Keep all of your visitation schedule including phone contact, Keep good records; be organized. If you need to file for contempt, ask that all communications be through a parenting app. Don't be overly demanding (like making many contacts in a very short period of time) but followup on unanswered communications. Make sure you do not engage in the same activities (such has inquiring about mom's activities; just listen to what child chooses to share) that concern you.

I am concerned that if the child at 10 thinks she can control her own life by refusing to see or speak with you that you will have real problems when you have a 16 yo who then thinks she is in control of her parents. Know your legal rights and responsibilities. What you say and how you say it is important; get professional help preparing for these conversations with both mom and child.

 

[commentator]

Really, where you run into problems is letting a ten year old child choose whether or not she will obey a court order. You have to be the stable one, the one who insists on her following the court order, whether she says she doesn't want to or not. It is not necessary for her to like you or to want to come to your house, it's in a court document, and that's the end of it. Whether she has made plans with some other ten year old, or whether her mother has made plans for the whole family, you MUST insist on her visiting you as specified. Yes, by all means, I would get her into counseling on your time, she probably will not want to participate in it at first, but you must be the adult here. Put away your constant verbal battling with your ex wife that has been going on since time began here, and concentrate on being the adult and the parent in the situation with your child. It is not unlikely that she will get very mixed messages about you,, may report critically about everything you do to your ex. But that doesn't mean that you do not continue to exercise your visitation and do what you are legally entitled to do in regard to it.

 

[Jamackle86]

UPDATE. I Talked to my daughter today and I could tell she did not want to speak with me at all. It’s heartbreaking because I don’t want to force her to come over when she feels like this. I now have text messages from her mother, in which she states that she has been having conversations with our daughter about possibly going to court over visitation. My ex gleefully tells my our daughter says she will tell the judge she doesn’t want to see me anymore. She also stated in a text message that she talks to my daughter and my daughters friend (Also 10) about arguments she and I have and both my daughter and the friend always say I’m in the wrong and she’s in the right. to me this is clear cut coaching and manipulating of our 10 yr old daughter. Is There a GAL who can advise on how to proceed here? I will be going to court, but the damage is getting worse. How do I repair the relationship with my daughter when her mother keeps meddling with the intent to destroy it?

 

[not2cleverRed]

UPDATE. I Talked to my daughter today and I could tell she did not want to speak with me at all. It’s heartbreaking because I don’t want to force her to come over when she feels like this. I now have text messages from her mother, in which she states that she has been having conversations with our daughter about possibly going to court over visitation. My ex gleefully tells my our daughter says she will tell the judge she doesn’t want to see me anymore. She also stated in a text message that she talks to my daughter and my daughters friend (Also 10) about arguments she and I have and both my daughter and the friend always say I’m in the wrong and she’s in the right. to me this is clear cut coaching and manipulating of our 10 yr old daughter. Is There a GAL who can advise on how to proceed here? I will be going to court, but the damage is getting worse. How do I repair the relationship with my daughter when her mother keeps meddling with the intent to destroy it?

Let her fit her own noose.

Seriously. The more she flings garbage like this, the worse she makes herself look, especially if you stay calm and don't add fuel.

Take the high road: be calm but assertive.

Heck, if she actually tries saying stuff like this in court, you could end up being the custodial parent.

 

[commentator]

Accept that your ex wife can't ever be made to say, or not to say this or that while the child is with her. You can't take her to court, and she can't take you to court and MAKE her or she can't MAKE you do anything.

What you need to do to "repair the relationship" with your daughter is simply to make sure that she has counseling during her time with you. Be yourself, do not trash her mother, do not argue with her, do not discuss the whole custody, family situation at length with your daughter and make it the focus of your time together. Instead, live your life, as normally as possible, having fun times when she is there, stress moving on happily and healthily. Counseling for you isn't a bad idea, either.

This "gleefully" thing is the tell. She is getting off on the whole stirring of the pot, drama of trying to continue the fighting with you. The further you can remove yourself, and your daughter when she is with you on your visitation times from the dramatics, including limiting her time with that little friend, incidentally, the better the court will probably regard your parenting skills, versus those of your ex.

 

[stealth2]

Also, I found that if kiddo says to you "Other Parent said that you...", the best response was "Well, people on different sides of a situation usually have different ways of seeing things. Like, if your two BFFs have a fight and you ask what happened, they both have different "stories", or ways they see what happened. No one's lying, they just see it in different ways. The best thing you can do is decide for yourself which version is closer to the way it is, or if you see it in a totally different way. You're allowed your own opinion." And drop it. Kids aren't stupid.

 

[not2cleverRed]

Also, I found that if kiddo says to you "Other Parent said that you...", the best response was "Well, people on different sides of a situation usually have different ways of seeing things. Like, if your two BFFs have a fight and you ask what happened, they both have different "stories", or ways they see what happened. No one's lying, they just see it in different ways. The best thing you can do is decide for yourself which version is closer to the way it is, or if you see it in a totally different way. You're allowed your own opinion." And drop it. Kids aren't stupid.

Additionally, if the kid starts telling you what the other parent is going to tell the judge, it's good to let the kid know that it's a grown up issue, and that you'll not discuss it with them. Or at least, that's what I told my kid when she started parroting what my ex was saying.

 

[Jamackle86]

I’d love to be able to talk to my daughter like the new suggestions state, but we’ve reached a point where I’m not able to see or talk to her anymore Unless I force the issue, which I’m worried would backfire. I have to go through her mom who keeps telling me that our daughter refuses to talk to or see me And there’s nothing she or I can do. When I ask why I’m told because “you are never here for her“ And “this is her own decision - she’s figured you out“ - things like that. The drinking no longer seems to be a reason anymore like when I first posted this.....now All of a sudden it‘s all about me never being there for her. I mean - here I am texting to see her every other weekend and I’m being told she won’t see me because I’m never there for her. It makes no sense. Her mom even told me that daughter has already firmly decided she’s not spending any time with me or my family (who she had always loved spending time with) for thanksgiving and Christmas.

I mean, this really came out of nowhere.....the last time she was over we had a great evening together with a bonfire, s’mores and family games she loves. She was laughing and had a good time all night. There was no indication that she was upset. How did we go from that to her writing me out of her life at age 10?

Anyway, I’ve been reading up on Parental alienation and reunification therapy. any insight on these topics? I’m not interested in holding mom accountable for parental alienation....I just want to petition the courts for reunification therapy because I’m pretty sure my ex would object to any therapy so I think it would have to be a court order. I will be hiring an attorney, but I’m just wondering if any attorneys are familiar with this and can give some insight.

 

[stealth2]

Here is part of your problem. If you don't force the issue by showing up each and every time you are scheduled to have your daughter, she isn't actually denying your time - you forfeit it by not showing up. And Mom tells daughter, "see - Dad doesn't care enough to come get you." And you will have proven her right. You show up every time, if Mom doesn't hand kiddo over or kiddo says she doesn't want to go - you call the cops so you can file a report. A few times of that, and you file against Mom for contempt.

 

[not2cleverRed]

Your daughter is a tween.

The solution is simple. Attempt to exercise your parenting time. Document refusals, especially by Mom. Do not engage, just coldly and directly inform her that you are picking up kiddo for the court ordered parenting time and then show up. Make a record of any denials and document your attempts.

Do not discuss this AT ALL with your daughter.

After a documented pattern of denied parenting time, go to court and ask that she be found in contempt, and that you'd like make-up parenting time.

I think if you go to court and ask for therapy, and your ex objects, it will aptly illustrate her negative attitude.

Honestly, people have lost custody for behaving like her.