Debtor spent the money for gold coins

[robinsonf]

What is the name of your state? Florida
I am judgment creditor. The judgment debtor, after the judgment was announced, purchased gold coins (from US mint) worth of several thousands of dollars, directly using the money from the bank account listed on his name alone. He emptied the bank account. When questioned, he testified under oath that he purchased those coins but he no longer have those coins and has no memory on what happened to those coins, probably lost them or sold them and spend money, etc. Basically he is giving a very vague answer but very firmly saying that he no longer have them and did not give them as gift to someone. He also testified that he has no money with him now (in case he sold the coins). Any advice on handling this mater?

 

[quincy]

What is the amount of the judgment?

You have a debtor who swore under oath that he had coins and that now he doesn’t have them. Your job is to prove him wrong by locating any hidden assets, including the coins.

Winning a judgment can be easy. Trying to collect on the judgment often isn’t.

 

[robinsonf]

The judgment is for 36K.

Gold coins won’t disappear. Generally, a person remembers what he has done with his own gold coins. So, are his statements enough to convince the court to order him to provide correct information or bring back those coins?

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state? Florida
I am judgment creditor. The judgment debtor, after the judgment was announced, purchased gold coins (from US mint) worth of several thousands of dollars, directly using the money from the bank account listed on his name alone. He emptied the bank account. When questioned, he testified under oath that he purchased those coins but he no longer have those coins and has no memory on what happened to those coins, probably lost them or sold them and spend money, etc. Basically he is giving a very vague answer but very firmly saying that he no longer have them and did not give them as gift to someone. He also testified that he has no money with him now (in case he sold the coins). Any advice on handling this mater?

Exactly how much money did he spend on gold coins? How much was in the bank account? If you have a judgment for 36k and he spent 3k that was in his bank account, I doubt you will get much traction with the judge over that. However, if he spend considerably more than that, then it could be a different story.

You would literally need to convince a judge to throw him into jail for contempt, until he coughs up where the coins and/or the money is.

 

[quincy]

The judgment is for 36K.

Gold coins won’t disappear. Generally, a person remembers what he has done with his own gold coins. So, are his statements enough to convince the court to order him to provide correct information or bring back those coins?

You really only have the word of a possible/probable liar that there was ever any money in the bank or gold coins.

You need to locate the assets. The court won’t help you with that.

https://dos.myflorida.com/sunbiz/forms/judgment-lien/collect-judgment/

 

[robinsonf]

He spent 22K on gold coins. By the time he testified, it was already 5 months since he bought those coins.

 

[quincy]

He spent 22K on gold coins. By the time he testified, it was already 5 months since he bought those coins.

How do you know this?

 

[robinsonf]

He wired 22k money from his bank account to gold dealer for the coins. He testified this and also submitted bank documents. I did not start this collection process immediately after the judgment, but now it is too late: it is already 9 months since the judgment was announced.

 

[quincy]

He wired 22k money from his bank account to gold dealer for the coins. He testified this and also submitted bank documents. I did not start this collection process immediately after the judgment, but now it is too late: it is already 9 months since the judgment was announced.

You could hire a private investigator to try to track down what, if anything, remains of the coins or to assist you in locating any other assets your debtor might have.

I think you probably are right that you waited too long. The fellow has had plenty of time to hide whatever assets he had, possibly hiding them in a different state.

 

[robinsonf]

I already drained all my money in this case.

If he sold the coins, is he obligated to report that transaction or anything to IRS or any government agency? If he lost those coins then is he obligated to file a police complaint or can he simply keep quiet?

He has another 10K in bank when the judgment was announced but he withdrew the cash almost 15 days after the judgment. He testified that he spent that 10K also, and that he has no memory on where or how he spent it.

 

[quincy]

I already drained all my money in this case.

If he sold the coins, is he obligated to report that transaction or anything to IRS or any government agency? If he lost those coins then is he obligated to file a police complaint or can he simply keep quiet?

He has another 10K in bank when the judgment was announced but he withdrew the cash almost 15 days after the judgment. He testified that he spent that 10K also, and that he has no memory on where or how he spent it.

Your debtor can lie and hide assets and possibly not report sales or purchases. He obviously does not want to pay you so he probably is not going to make it easy for you by leaving an easily discoverable paper trail.

 

[adjusterjack]

If he sold the coins, is he obligated to report that transaction or anything to IRS or any government agency? If he lost those coins then is he obligated to file a police complaint or can he simply keep quiet?

If you are relying on the word "obligated" you will get nowhere and never see a nickel.

He was obligated to pay you before you sued him. He didn't.
He was obligated to pay you after you got the judgment. He didn't.
He was obligated to be truthful with the court. He wasn't.

You will have to prove to the court, with evidence, not sayso, that the coins exist and where they are located so that the court can issue a writ of execution empowering a sheriff to seize them.

Otherwise, if the debtor is employed, you'll have to rely on wage garnishment.

 

[robinsonf]

He is not employed. He has several other properties also on his name but sold all of them (for almost market price) after the judgment and "spent" the money/cash.
In a nutshell, if the debtor has money (cash withdrawn from the bank, or gold coins), can he spend it as he likes without giving (or leaving) any evidence or details on when, where, or how he spent that money?

 

[adjusterjack]

He has several other properties also on his name but sold all of them (for almost market price) after the judgment and "spent" the money/cash.

Did you not record your judgment with the county recorder when it was issued? It would have become a lien on his properties in that county and you might have gotten some money out of the sale proceeds if there had been any equity.

You can still record the judgment and it becomes a lien on any future property that he buys in that county.

In a nutshell, if the debtor has money (cash withdrawn from the bank, or gold coins), can he spend it as he likes without giving (or leaving) any evidence or details on when, where, or how he spent that money?

Obviously, yes, he does appear to have that ability.

Just out of curiosity, what's the back story? How did you get involved with this guy to the tune of $36,000?

 

[Taxing Matters]

In a nutshell, if the debtor has money (cash withdrawn from the bank, or gold coins), can he spend it as he likes without giving (or leaving) any evidence or details on when, where, or how he spent that money?

Yes, he can. The judgment simply gives you a right to attach any nonexempt assets that he has. It's up to you to find those assets. He has no obligation to make that easy for you or leave evidence/clues for you to find to help you find the assets. Nor does he have any obligation to preserve assets for you to get. If he wants to blow all his money on, say, travel or whatever, he can do that.