Bankruptcy Law Chapter 7

[NBA2KFANBOY]

This will be a question more so for the state of Oklahoma but I am curious in general.

An individual filed for bankruptcy in July of 2019 chapter 7 bankruptcy. The individuals bankruptcy was discharged in October of 2019. On 12 Feb 2020 the same individual received a debt a period ranging from 29 March 2005 thru 30 April 2019. During this period the person the individual incurred a debt of over $170,000.

The individual had no way of knowing about this debt prior to filing bankruptcy and is wondering if he can at this point amend the previous bankruptcy to include this debt? Also is the debt incurred during that period able to even be created. This is not a debt due to a service or good that was purchased after that date but literally during pay he received during that period.

DFAS states that due to a probable cause of fraud they are allowed to charge the debt however the person has not been charged with any crime or anything to the sort. And was actually entitled to the pay. Is it possible to go to bankruptcy court and add an amendment for this debt since it incurred completely prior to the filing period. The original Bankruptcy attorney is saying that it is possible and that according to bankruptcy a probable cause opining is not the same as a conviction for fraud in court. And that the individual is able to amend it in Oklahoma however DFAS is saying they wouldn't honor it. Is that legal for DFAS.

 

[adjusterjack]

This "individual" needs to go back to his lawyer and take his lawyer's advice instead of asking strangers on the internet about something that so obviously has a plethora of important details missing.

If his lawyer says the bankruptcy can be amended, then the bankruptcy can be amended. If the bankruptcy court discharges the debt and the DFAS keeps hounding him for the money, then back to court to get the court to order DFAS to back off.

As to whether it's legal for someone to "say" that DFAS won't accept the discharge, well, there is no law against "saying" things.

 

[despritfreya]

Let me restate the facts:

1) You filed bk in January, 2019;
2) You failed to list a $170,000.00 debt you incurred between 2005 and 2019;
3) You received a Discharge in October, 2019;
4) You fail to state if your case is closed;
5) You fail to state if there were any assets that your Trustee administered; and
6) The creditor you failed to include in the bk is now seeking payment asserting that the Discharge does not apply due to alleged fraud and your failure to include the debt in the bk.

11 U.S.C. 523(a)(3) states that a Discharge does not discharge any debt that is “ neither listed nor scheduled. . . in time to permit:

(A). . . timely filing of a proof of claim, unless such creditor had notice or actual knowledge of the case in time for such timely filing; or

(B) if such debt is of a kind specified in paragraph (2), (4), or (6) of this subsection, timely filing of a proof of claim and timely request for a determination of dis-chargeability of such debt under one of such paragraphs, unless such creditor had notice or actual knowledge of the case in time for such timely filing and request.

(Emphasis added.)

Translated, the debt is not subject to the discharge under A if the creditor was not given notice in time to file a Proof of Claim and, under B, if the creditor was not given notice in time to file a proof of claim and a complaint to determine if the debt is non dischargeable due to fraud, misrepresentation, breach of fiduciary duty/defalcation/larceny and/or willful & malicious injury.

As AJ indicates, you need to talk to your bk attny to find out how to fix the problem, if there is one.

Des.

 

[zddoodah]

On 12 Feb 2020 the same individual received a debt a period ranging from 29 March 2005 thru 30 April 2019.

"Received a debt" doesn't make any sense. Are you saying the debtor was notified/reminded about a debt he/she incurred during that time period? If not, what exactly are you talking about?

The individual had no way of knowing about this debt prior to filing bankruptcy

That seems awfully unlikely. Please explain.

DFAS states that due to a probable cause of fraud they are allowed to charge the debt

Huh?

This "individual" needs to go back to his lawyer and take his lawyer's advice instead of asking strangers on the internet about something that so obviously has a plethora of important details missing.

Yup.

 

[quincy]

As a note to FANBOY: despritfreya is a bankruptcy attorney.

 

[NBA2KFANBOY]

Let me restate the facts:

1) You filed bk in January, 2019;
2) You failed to list a $170,000.00 debt you incurred between 2005 and 2019;
3) You received a Discharge in October, 2019;
4) You fail to state if your case is closed;
5) You fail to state if there were any assets that your Trustee administered; and
6) The creditor you failed to include in the bk is now seeking payment asserting that the Discharge does not apply due to alleged fraud and your failure to include the debt in the bk.

11 U.S.C. 523(a)(3) states that a Discharge does not discharge any debt that is “ neither listed nor scheduled. . . in time to permit:

(Emphasis added.)

Translated, the debt is not subject to the discharge under A if the creditor was not given notice in time to file a Proof of Claim and, under B, if the creditor was not given notice in time to file a proof of claim and a complaint to determine if the debt is non dischargeable due to fraud, misrepresentation, breach of fiduciary duty/defalcation/larceny and/or willful & malicious injury.

As AJ indicates, you need to talk to your bk attny to find out how to fix the problem, if there is one.

Des.

Ok so I may have confused the timeline. The debt incurred from March 2005- April 2019. It was not at the time a debt. In June 2019 a petition for bankruptcy was entered and in October 2019 the debt was discharged.
In February of 2020 the individual received notification that they owed a debt that was incurred from March 2005-April 2019. The person had no way of knowing this would be a debt prior to than.otherwise the debt would of been added to the original bankruptcy petition.

 

[Zigner]

Ok so I may have confused the timeline. The debt incurred from March 2005- April 2019. It was not at the time a debt. In June 2019 a petition for bankruptcy was entered and in October 2019 the debt was discharged.
In February of 2020 the individual received notification that they owed a debt that was incurred from March 2005-April 2019. The person had no way of knowing this would be a debt prior to than.otherwise the debt would of been added to the original bankruptcy petition.

Please have the involved person either log on him (or her) self...or, better yet, have the involved person speak with their attorney.

 

[NBA2KFANBOY]

"Received a debt" doesn't make any sense. Are you saying the debtor was notified/reminded about a debt he/she incurred during that time period? If not, what exactly are you talking about?



That seems awfully unlikely. Please explain.



Huh?



Yup.

individual received a notification of the debt In February of 2020 the debt incurred From March 2005-July 2019. The individual had no way of knowing this would become a debt in the first place as it was normal pay entitlement.

 

[Zigner]

individual received a notification of the debt In February of 2020 the debt incurred From March 2005-July 2019. The individual had no way of knowing this would become a debt in the first place as it was normal pay entitlement.

The individual likely has options to dispute the "debt" - please have the individual log on to ask his/her own questions. You (obviously) don't have all the facts in the matter.

 

[NBA2KFANBOY]

Let me restate the facts:

1) You filed bk in January, 2019;
2) You failed to list a $170,000.00 debt you incurred between 2005 and 2019;
3) You received a Discharge in October, 2019;
4) You fail to state if your case is closed;
5) You fail to state if there were any assets that your Trustee administered; and
6) The creditor you failed to include in the bk is now seeking payment asserting that the Discharge does not apply due to alleged fraud and your failure to include the debt in the bk.

11 U.S.C. 523(a)(3) states that a Discharge does not discharge any debt that is “ neither listed nor scheduled. . . in time to permit:

(Emphasis added.)

Translated, the debt is not subject to the discharge under A if the creditor was not given notice in time to file a Proof of Claim and, under B, if the creditor was not given notice in time to file a proof of claim and a complaint to determine if the debt is non dischargeable due to fraud, misrepresentation, breach of fiduciary duty/defalcation/larceny and/or willful & malicious injury.

As AJ indicates, you need to talk to your bk attny to find out how to fix the problem, if there is one.

Des.

the tax return was what was originally administered.

 

[NBA2KFANBOY]

Let me restate the facts:

1) You filed bk in January, 2019; (June 2019)
2) You failed to list a $170,000.00 debt you incurred between 2005 and 2019;
3) You received a Discharge in October, 2019; yes
4) You fail to state if your case is closed; discharged already assuming case closed.
5) You fail to state if there were any assets that your Trustee administered; and (2019 tax return)
6) The creditor you failed to include in the bk is now seeking payment asserting that the Discharge does not apply due to alleged fraud and your failure to include the debt in the bk. (Yes they said a probable cause exist. No criminal type action or anything. No convictions etc)

 

[zddoodah]

individual received a notification of the debt In February of 2020 the debt incurred From March 2005-July 2019. The individual had no way of knowing this would become a debt in the first place as it was normal pay entitlement.

Other than correcting some of the information in a non-material way, this provides nothing new, and you didn't answer any of the questions I asked.

What does the acronym "DFAS" stand for, and on what legal basis does this entity believe it is entitled to collect on a debt that dates back a decade and a half? What is the nature of the alleged debt? Why didn't you know** about the debt or the possibility of it at the time you filed BK? What is the nature of the alleged fraud?

** - If, in fact, I'm correct that this involves you, why not abandon the pretense of writing in the third person?

 

[NBA2KFANBOY]

Other than correcting some of the information in a non-material way, this provides nothing new, and you didn't answer any of the questions I asked.

What does the acronym "DFAS" stand for, and on what legal basis does this entity believe it is entitled to collect on a debt that dates back a decade and a half? What is the nature of the alleged debt? Why didn't you know** about the debt or the possibility of it at the time you filed BK? What is the nature of the alleged fraud?

** - If, in fact, I'm correct that this involves you, why not abandon the pretense of writing in the third person?

Defense Finance and accounting service (DFAS). The legal basis they can take the funds back is called tainted claim. The investigation said it was a probable cause that fraud occurred so they are taking the complete amount due back. However the person isn’t charged with any crime and will not be but they are using the probable cause to collect the entitlement in full. Even though the person is still collecting the same entitlement.

 

[despritfreya]

What does the acronym "DFAS" stand for, and on what legal basis does this entity believe it is entitled to collect on a debt that dates back a decade and a half? What is the nature of the alleged debt? Why didn't you know** about the debt or the possibility of it at the time you filed BK? What is the nature of the alleged fraud?

The Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) oversees payments to Department of Defense servicemembers, employees, vendors and contractors. The Defense Finance and Accounting Services also provides Department of Defense decision makers with business intelligence, finance and accounting information.

https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/defense-finance-and-accounting-service

Never dealt with this agency but I will guess there is a back-story to OP's issues.

Des.

 

[PayrollHRGuy]

The Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) oversees payments to Department of Defense servicemembers, employees, vendors and contractors. The Defense Finance and Accounting Services also provides Department of Defense decision makers with business intelligence, finance and accounting information.

https://www.usa.gov/federal-agencies/defense-finance-and-accounting-service

Never dealt with this agency but I will guess there is a back-story to OP's issues.

Des.

And they don't seem to be the OP's issues and he may know nothing about them.