confusing issue about will/house

[CaringforMom]

thank you for responding!!

my next queston now is
is the children of my mother (myself and siblings) also part of the shares or trust? since she was listed for living trust if i word that correct?

there is NO lein on the house
all nursing home expenses are taken care of

 

[anteater]

If what the will granted to your mother was only a life estate, then the answer is "No."

 

[CaringforMom]

I just found out there is ownership to my mother
house is left to all 3 children just that my grandmother wanted to make sure my mother would always have a place to live incase my grandmother passed before my mother did.

now as far as the title goes
although what i seen as being listed as only in my grandmothers name
my uncle says the house is in my grandmothers name and the 3 children
but that title cant be found
and its not listed as all of them on the title that i saw just my grandmother

so this is where the problem is with the surviving spouse who thinks she is entitled to her deceased husbands share of the house

would that be true now? or does what you said before still stand that since my uncle passed away before my grandmother that the surviving spouse is not entitled to the share?
the surviving wife thinks she is entitled to half of the house her husbands share and my mothers share.
sorry this is confusing

 

[anteater]

Well... see... here's the problem. You don't know for certain how the property is titled. And, without that, we're just laying out various scenarios.

Give a try at this website and see what you find:

http://www.masslandrecords.com/malr/index.htm

 

[hermes77]

Oh my what a mess.

Ok, assuming that your uncle died before your grandmother then no part of the house would go to him. Wich in turn means there is nothing of his for his wife to get in the house.

If on the other hand he died after your grandmother, then his share would go to him, and then to his estate. She would get it from his estate.

She can hem and haw and say she's entitled all she wants, but if the share of the house never went to your uncle or his estate it doesn't matter.

This of course assumes that at the time of her death your grandmother owned the house and there were no liens and such.

The best way to deal with her might be to simply let her call the atty instead of trying to be in the middle. That way she wont blame you, and if she does you just look at her with a puzzled expresion, and say "I don't know what your talking about. The attorney told you something, if you don't like it, talk to him."

 

[CaringforMom]

hello
thank you all so much for responding
i have totaly new information
i looked into the land records and have found the following info which is confusing to me..


(names changed)
when first open the record its my grandmothers name (&al) (gtor) see record taking then i clicked on land court
and it shows
grandmothers name new order for certificate
grandmothers name deed
and again
grandmothers name deed
________________________
order for new certificate..

Grantor grandmother "jones" (gtor)
grantee 1st son jones (TR) (gree) (deceased)
grantee irrevocable home trust (gtee)
grantee grandmother jones (life est.) gtee deceased)
grantee daughter jones (&al) (gtee) (deceased)
grantee 1st son jones (&al) (gtee) (living)
______________________
another page is the deed
consideration 1.00 (?? whats that mean?)som
grantor grandmother ( gtor)
grantee 1st son (tr) gtor (deceased)
grantee irrevocable home trust (gtee)
grantee grandmother ( life est). (gtee)
grantee daughter &al gtee (deceased)
grantee living son & al) gtee
grantee deceased son (&al) gtee

___________________
next page is
declaration of trust
grantor 1st son jones (tr) (gtor)
grantor jones irrevocable home trust (gtor)
grantee 1st son jones (tr) (gtee)
grantee jones irrevocable home trust (gtee)
________________________________________
on another page somewhere i seen this... type is listed as order for new certificate dated the same
its listed as
grantor grandfather jones deceaased) (est) gtor
grantee grandmother (&al) (gtee)
then lists the 3 children the same as grandmother

Can anyone help with this new information?
my cousin told me that the surviviing widow is stating that she is entitiled to her husbands (share) estate which according to her is half the estate
where does all this stand as far as ownership of the house?
what does the trust mean?
thanks!!

 

[CaringforMom]

hello
im still hoping someone can help me
ive been doing some reading online
about the irrevocable trust and the deed
from what ive seen the irrevocable trust revokes ownershiip of those on the deed and goes to the trust
the trust only listed my now deceased uncle,
does this mean
that his widow is now the owner of the irrevocable trust? and the estate?
or does the other children (of my grandmother) who are listed on the deed but not the trust still have part ownership?

 

[anteater]

I think that this is the point where you need to obtain hard copies of the documents and consult an attorney.

 

[CaringforMom]

thank you for taking the time to read my posts
I have such a feeling that the trust goes to the widow she has stated that its hers I feel she and my uncle underminded my grandmother and the whole family. my grandmother wanted the house split equaly and thats whats in her will.

I was hoping to have something postitive to tell my uncle today. thanks again!
we will be getting all copies on tuesday

 

[hermes77]

Yup, get the hard copies. AND while your at it make sure you pay the extra few dollars to get them certified by the clerk. Then take the certified copy of the will, certified copy of the deed, and certified copies of the death certificates to the atty. I say certified copies because they can be used in court in case it goes that far.

 

[anteater]

thank you for taking the time to read my posts
I have such a feeling that the trust goes to the widow she has stated that its hers I feel she and my uncle underminded my grandmother and the whole family. my grandmother wanted the house split equaly and thats whats in her will.

While you need to do what I suggested previously, my guess (and it's only a guess) is that grandmother and the children became owners when grandfather died. Then, at some point, grandmother gifted her ownership share to some sort of irrevocable trust where "1st son jones" (is that your deceased uncle?) is the trustee, with your grandmother retaining a life estate. This might have been some sort of Medicaid planning.

That would mean that grandmother did not have ownership when she passed away and her will really is not relevant. It would also mean that you need to know what the trust says to determine current ownership.

Are there any dates attached to these online records - particularly the deed where grandmother is the grantor?

Who does the lawyer that you mentioned earlier represent?

 

[CaringforMom]

yes my grandmother and her children became owners when my grandfather passed

new deed and the trust are both dated 2001 taken out on same day.
my uncle passed in 2003
my grandmother in 2009
my deceased uncle is the only name showing on the irrevcoable trust no other names are on that does that mean it goes to his wife? or my uncles daughter? or does ownership stay with my grandmothers children? im so distrought over this its a family home my grandfather built it for him and my grandmother.

my grandmother told us for years that the house was in trust for all 3 children. no document has been found (yet) with all 3 names on it. only found the deceased uncles name as its stated in a previous post.

i do understand that my grandmother gave (gifted) ownership to the trust proberly due to the chance of long term care
there was nursing home care less than a year long term
she had a few short term rehab stays in the past

 

[anteater]

First, once the house was owned by grandmother and the 3 children, grandmother could only dispose of her interest in the house - which she apparently did by gifting it to the trust. That does not disturb the ownership interests of the children.

Second, this is a very unclear statement:

my deceased uncle is the only name showing on the irrevcoable trust no other names are on that

"Name showing on the irrevocable trust" is not a clear description. Have you actually seen the trust document? Generally, there are 3 parties to a trust:

1) The trustor (or settlor or grantor): the person creating the trust and, usually, funding it with assets.
2) The trustee: the person named to adminster the trust
3) The beneficiaries: the people who are to benefit from the assets in the trust (the trustee might also be a beneficiary or even the only beneficiary)

Do you know for certain who the trust beneficiaries are?

 

[CaringforMom]

hi
thanks again for your time with this matter! it is appricated.

I finally seen paperwork today and have copy of a couple of things including the trust document and the will
The trust is in my grandmothers name and then lists my now deceased uncles name as substitute trustee and if in the event of his death turns over to my surviving uncle as the substitute substitute trustee and lists all 3 children as beneficiarys.

its a few pages long and confusing to me. are these trusts g eneraly written as a standard document or is it differnt with each person?

here is a passage id like to understand better
The principal and income of this Trust shall benifit "grandmother" durning her life time. At her death the beneficiaries of this trust will be (document names all three children) in equal shares. if any of the beneficiaries dies during this trust. his/her children if any will receive the deceased beneficiarys share and if they die without children their share shall go to the surviving beneficiaries and the children of the deceased beneficiary by right of representaion.
goes on further describing ages ect

does this mean that the surviving widow will not recive part ownership and it goes to my deceased uncles child?
and my mothers share to her children?

________________________________________
(on differnt differnt document)
ownership is listed as irrevocable trust 3/6th and each child 1/6th
does this mean that my grandmothers children each still own the properly?
does my living uncle now own the trust and 1/6th? does the will cover
what about my deceased uncles 1/6th would that go to his wife or to his daughter?
____________________________________________
Does my grandmothers wishes in her will cover what she wanted done with the childrens share of the estate?
in the will it states
I give, devise and bequeath my entire estate of whatever nature and whereever situated to my children in equal shares provided, however , that if any of said children shall not survive me but leave issue surviving me such issue shall take in equal parts by right of representation the share of which such child who did not survive me would have taken if such child had survived me . provided further that if any of my children who predeceased me and leave no issue then thier share shall go to thier surviving siblings and the issue of deceased siblings by right of representation

in trying to understand that does it mean that my deceased uncle's 1/6th and my deceased mothers 1/6th turn over to thier surviving sibling?

 

[anteater]

You still need to confirm all this, but...

When grandmother gifted her ownership in the house to the trust, the trust owned 1/2 and each of her children owned 1/6th. When your mother and your uncle passed away, their respective 1/6th should have been disposed of through probate according to their respective wills or the MA intestate succession statutes. (Which means that your deceased uncle's widow likely does have an ownership interest.)

Now that grandmother has passed away, your surviving uncle is the trustee and has the duty to administer the trust according to the trust's instructions. (Your uncle does not "own" the trust.) According to what you have posted, your surviving uncle receives 1/3 of the trust assets, your deceased uncle's children receive 1/3, and your deceased mother's children receive 1/3. That applies not only to the share of the house that was titled to the trust, but any other assets that were titled to the trust.

Which would mean that your surviving uncle ends up owning 1/2 of the house, with the remaining 1/2 share scattered among several grandchildren (and probably the deceased uncle's widow) in varying fractions.

The provisions of grandmother's will apply only to any of her assets that were not titled to the trust.