Intruder breaking into shed - lawful to use lethal force?

[commentator]

Until you have been in a situation similar to this, it's tough to understand the dynamics. People greatly greatly over-estimate their ability to think things through and behave rationally when under a tremendous amount of stress. We have been conditioned by movies and t.v. shows to believe things will happen thus and thus and I'll do this and that..... But really, the very least amount of confrontation you can manage in any sort of situation like this is best for everyone. No one should over-glorify being legally entitled to just jump in there and blast 'em. That's not usually how things work. Having to do something like this would be a tragedy for everyone concerned.

 

[CdwJava]

Until you have been in a situation similar to this, it's tough to understand the dynamics. People greatly greatly over-estimate their ability to think things through and behave rationally when under a tremendous amount of stress. We have been conditioned by movies and t.v. shows to believe things will happen thus and thus and I'll do this and that..... But really, the very least amount of confrontation you can manage in any sort of situation like this is best for everyone. No one should over-glorify being legally entitled to just jump in there and blast 'em. That's not usually how things work. Having to do something like this would be a tragedy for everyone concerned.

Amen!

When I conduct training and we discuss officer-involved shootings, I tend to mention that there are most often TWO "victims" of the shooting: The person who was shot, and the shooter. It is rare that an officer is able to continue working after an officer involved shooting., TV would have us believe it happens every day and that officers take a few days off, go to Disneyland, see a shrink, then come back ready to do it again. In reality, it's a lot tougher than that. Even if the officer comes back, most are out within a year or two ... they can';t do it anymore. Many more SHOULD get out, but they try and cowboy up, much to their detriment and the detriment of their partners.

It is no simple thing to take a life for most people, and even in "good" shootings (where the justification was clear as day) it can be a difficult thing to process.

All of us can say, "If this happens, I will do XYZ ..." But, let me tell you right now, when it happens, unless you are well-trained, it will NOT happen the way you pictured it, and you will NOT feel the way you think you will. But, this is why police train to do what they do - and this includes shooting to a center of mass. Deviating from training and trying to shoot an extremity or do some fancy trick shootin' and knock the weapon from a guy's hand is guaranteed to distract and delay the response and likely result in a dead cop (or, in the case of a homeowner, a dead resident).

The bad guy with the gun may not have the conscience you and I have - he may not care a whit about killing you. Your conscience gives him the edge ... you need to train up and react in order to buy back the precious fraction of a second or so that can make the difference between life ... or death.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Having been in the situation of having a knife in a gunfight. I opt for the gun myself.

 

[Ohiogal]

I think it is a great idea. Think of it as Natural Selection.

Really? Bar fights now become shoot outs. Yep. That is the type of world I want to live in. Trayvon ******s on every street corner being stalked by your neighborhood's version of George Zimmerman. Sorry but no.

 

[Ohiogal]

Having been in the situation of having a knife in a gunfight. I opt for the gun myself.

Then maybe you shouldn't have put yourself in the situation of being in any fight. I have lived 40 years without being in a physical fight with someone on the street.

 

[tranquility]

All of us can say, "If this happens, I will do XYZ ..." But, let me tell you right now, when it happens, unless you are well-trained, it will NOT happen the way you pictured it, and you will NOT feel the way you think you will. But, this is why police train to do what they do - and this includes shooting to a center of mass. Deviating from training and trying to shoot an extremity or do some fancy trick shootin' and knock the weapon from a guy's hand is guaranteed to distract and delay the response and likely result in a dead cop (or, in the case of a homeowner, a dead resident).

I recall a story from my police academy days of a CHP gunfight. Long story short, many shots were fired with the officer ending up dead. He had a pocket full of brass casings. You see, in all his training at the range, he found it to be a great big hassle to pick up his brass after practice. So, after emptying his weapon (revolver), he would dump it into his hand and put it in his pocket. Problem solved! Except he did the same thing when someone was shooting at him. Would the time have made the difference? Those who told the story certainly wanted us to believe it did and I have no reason to believe differently.

The bad guy with the gun may not have the conscience you and I have - he may not care a whit about killing you. Your conscience gives him the edge ... you need to train up and react in order to buy back the precious fraction of a second or so that can make the difference between life ... or death

I think I have told the stories here before so I will not repeat them. The reason I am not a cop is right here. I didn't shoot three times when I (probably) legally could have. Should I? No, things worked out OK and I get to write screeds here on FA. But...I realized that I was probably too hesitant by nature and being a cop was not going to be a good strategy for a long life for me. When I see the way Carl puts it, I prefer that way as "hesitant" is not complex enough to describe things.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

Then maybe you shouldn't have put yourself in the situation of being in any fight. I have lived 40 years without being in a physical fight with someone on the street.

ROFL I am one of those people trouble gravitates toward. I have been in dozens. I have been threatened while shopping etc... Heck, I was threatened at a car lot by the owner one day. I have that look that invites it and I am not tall enough people are automatically scared off.

 

[swalsh411]

Really? Bar fights now become shoot outs. Yep. That is the type of world I want to live in. Trayvon ******s on every street corner being stalked by your neighborhood's version of George Zimmerman. Sorry but no.

A single punch to the face can cause devastating injury. It certainly meets the standard of "grievous" injury to justify lethal force in self defense. So no I would not prefer to be disarmed just because I want to go to Applebees. And in every State it is illegal to be intoxicated and carry a gun. (and most to have anything to drink at all)

 

[CdwJava]

I recall a story from my police academy days of a CHP gunfight. Long story short, many shots were fired with the officer ending up dead. He had a pocket full of brass casings. You see, in all his training at the range, he found it to be a great big hassle to pick up his brass after practice. So, after emptying his weapon (revolver), he would dump it into his hand and put it in his pocket. Problem solved! Except he did the same thing when someone was shooting at him. Would the time have made the difference? Those who told the story certainly wanted us to believe it did and I have no reason to believe differently.

It's been a staple of training since then, and an example of the importance of repeated training such that actions become reflexive and not thought about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre

I think I have told the stories here before so I will not repeat them. The reason I am not a cop is right here. I didn't shoot three times when I (probably) legally could have. Should I? No, things worked out OK and I get to write screeds here on FA. But...I realized that I was probably too hesitant by nature and being a cop was not going to be a good strategy for a long life for me. When I see the way Carl puts it, I prefer that way as "hesitant" is not complex enough to describe things.

I believe it takes more stones for a man to admit that he cannot safely do the job any longer than it does for a man to try and "cowboy up." I respect the man who knows when to walk away, because that's a man who knows his limits and capabilities and understands his responsibilities to himself, his partners, and to the community. I would never - and HAVE never - stood for anyone calling someone names who has decided it's time to put up their spurs.

One sergeant of mine was a veteran of two large agencies. He had done almost everything there was to do - including SWAT. He was well into year 30+ when he had to kill a knife-wielding attacker. He drew down on the guy who charged him in an alley and repeatedly - and loudly - ordered the man to stop and drop the knife. He managed to put his car door between him and the attacker, and still the guy attacked him. The Sgt. vainly tried OC spray to no effect and then had to drop the attacker with a single round to the chest, dropping him instantly. No double or triple tap necessary (though double taps were the standard training then - it's triple today). He was never the same after that. When he came back about two months later, he'd call me into the office late at night just to talk about history - the Civil War mostly, as he was an avid historian and I got him involved in re-enacting. Instead of being on my beat, I'd spend time in the office talking. After a few months, I realized that he wasn't a benefit to the agency or his officers anymore and pulled the plug. I respect the heck outta the man, not just because of the grace and wisdom he demonstrated throughout his ordeal, but also with how he handled his post-retirement. He traveled, got into writing and has published mystery novels and historical ghost stories and guides, and always maintained a positive sense of humor in spite of having to take a life at nearly point blank range.

I ask myself in prayer whether I can reconcile taking a life with my faith if I have to. I believe I can. But, while I believe that I can take a life if I must, I cannot possibly say how I will react the day after I do so. Statistically, my career will end within about a year. I pray that if that day should come - and it almost has a few times - that I will be able to do so, not so much for myself, but for the guy standing next to me or the citizen down the street. The day I have to question whether I can actually take that life is the day I need to retire.

 

[TigerD]

I ask myself in prayer whether I can reconcile taking a life with my faith if I have to.

I pray that you never have to find out.

Nobody can how it will impact them until after it has happened.

DC

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

I would not hesitate to kill someone if I thought it was necessary. That said, when I was 16 a buddy and I tied a hangman's noose in his front yard while screwing around. We took off running the streets and left it there. His little brother dragged a garbage can out into their front yard, climbed on it, put the noose around his neck and died by hanging, when the garbage can collapsed. Neither of us has ever forgotten the guilt associated with event.

I pray that you never have to find out.

Nobody can how it will impact them until after it has happened.

DC

 

[TigerD]

I'm not fixing the typo in my previous post.

OHR - that must be a very difficult thing to live with. Thank you for sharing it. I know how difficult it is to share personal details like that - even behind the anonymous screen of the Internet.

DC

 

[tranquility]

I would not hesitate to kill someone if I thought it was necessary. That said, when I was 16 a buddy and I tied a hangman's noose in his front yard while screwing around. We took off running the streets and left it there. His little brother dragged a garbage can out into their front yard, climbed on it, put the noose around his neck and died by hanging, when the garbage can collapsed. Neither of us has ever forgotten the guilt associated with event.

It's knowing when it is "necessary" is the hard part. Could I shoot a person who broke into my home? Yes. Could I shoot someone shooting at me? Yes. Can I shoot someone who is outside my house with a firearm? Um...probably not. What if I am giving them commands to drop it and they just ignore me? What if they are walking to me? What if it is a knife and not a gun? What if he just killed my dog? On and on. Even when the choice is "easy" there is not so much ease. Maybe I can take cover and return fire if they get closer. Maybe I'll wait until they raise the weapon and not shoot when it is at their side. Maybe...well, maybe. As I said, for me, three times. I won each non-lethally. But until you actually find yourself in such situations do you realize how many variables there are. If you wait until it is "necessary", it may be too late.

 

[quincy]

I will start by saying that I hate guns. Working in an area where gun deaths are common and the police are out-armed by the populace, I see very little that is positive about private gun ownership.

Last week, a 19-year-old girl was shot to death when, after she was in a car accident, she walked up to a house and knocked on the door, looking for help. The homeowner shot her in the face and she died.

He was at no risk of harm. He was just afraid by a knock on the door.

Shooting someone who is in your backyard, stealing stuff from your shed? Absolute insanity.

I don't know when a human life became so worthless that people think other people are fair targets for gun practice.

 

[Ohiogal]

I will start by saying that I hate guns. Working in an area where gun deaths are common and the police are out-armed by the populace, I see very little that is positive about private gun ownership.

Last week, a 19-year-old girl was shot to death when, after she was in a car accident, she walked up to a house and knocked on the door, looking for help. The homeowner shot her in the face and she died.

He was at no risk of harm. He was just afraid by a knock on the door.

Shooting someone who is in your backyard, stealing stuff from your shed? Absolute insanity.

I don't know when a human life became so worthless that people think other people are fair targets for gun practice.

Quincy,
I grew up shooting. I was taught to shoot at 7 years old. I have shot quite a bit. But you know I was taught? Respect for the weapon. I don't own guns now because I have children who have not been taught gun safety. Would I kill? If someone severely hurt/killed my child, I would be extremely tempted to buy a gun and hunt them down and would do so gladly. I would fully expect to spend time in prison for that. And I am an attorney. I know what the law allows. If someone broke into my house -- I would fight to the death to protect my children. If someone broke into my garage or shed (neither is attached) -- I would call the police and note as much as I could. I agree with you though. Someone knocks on my door, I am not expecting it to be a criminal. Guns should not be the first thing people think of. They should be a last resort. This thread -- first thing some are thinking of is whether they can shoot. Sorry. Not my world.