Losing battle--2nd therapy session...

[daddenied]

What is the name of your state? CA

For some reason my last thread was locked, but I wanted to report my 2nd therapy session. I seem to be fighting a losing battle. I drove up to Fresno and got there at 11am for our second session. My two older children were the only ones that were there...the therapist wanted it that way. When one child went in, my ex and my oldest son was in the waiting area...(I have not been able to speak to the therapist of how I feel about her presence there). I made the mistake of speaking to this wicked lady...she started talking to me about why I am harrassing the children's providers and I told her if she would be an honest woman and give me the information I asked for I wouldn't have to ask. This didn't last very long, but then she cockily said, "1st child's name doesn't want you to be his father. I think he told you that over the phone once and you told him if he wanted it that way, then okay". By the way, one of the THREE times I spoke to this son in the last 12 months, he had told me he didn't want me as a father any more (WHY?! I had no clue) and he said he didn't need me...oh yeah and his mother was on the other line too. I was so hurt I asked him "do you have another father in your life? is your mother seeing someone who wants to be your father, because if that's the case and you really don't want me than I'll sign the papers" Of course I've regretted saying that since my ex throws it in my face in every email she sends. So, in front of me yesterday in therapy she asks "do you want him to be your father" as cocky and hurtful as she could possibly and he said "no." I was crushed. I said nothing as the therapist came out to get this son. When the next son was in the waiting room with us, she again tried to get me into conversation, but I hated her for purposely hurting me. I knew this would happen! After not seeing them for so long, I feel that they have been so alienated from me and this may be a losing battle. All I do is fight, fight and fight even more for them and now they don't want me. The therapist went on to tell me that they were very angry with me although were willing to give me another chance. I couldn't believe my ears. My children are lying! We had a wonderful visit last summer and even over the holidays at New Years...we constantly, me and my family and once my girlfriend and her family had conversations with each of my children in groups or family counsel and spoke of our challenges and our families, etc...we took pictures, we had parties, we had family counsel, and EVERY time I spoke to them, I spoke of our family and the divorce and how I wanted to be sure they knew we (their mom and I) both loved them very much and I told them I was aware of the hostile environment they had when we were married (no DV or abuse, but the constant arguing, the stress the not getting along, the lost jobs, the separations-ALL instigated by my ex, by the way when things went wrong, she'd pack them up and leave and then come back saying she was sorry, etc...) I made sure they understood that communication, OPEN communication was important and because my girlfriend is very anal retentive about communication and journaling, we journaled our visits, group family journal and individual journaling. My children have said I am mean and they didn't have a good time and hated visiting me, etc...I know in my heart that they are not telling the truth. My ex said "Oh, now you're calling our children liars!" I said, "NO! You don't have to be a LIAR necessarily to lie...like I am not a basketball player or baller, but I can play basketball. They aren't liars, but they sure are lying or making things up right now and you know this!" I told her. IT was an ugly experience. I can go on and on...I just feel sick right now. Miss Met, we may PM you. I know you all say "document, document, document,..." but all of this record keeping, my own job, my own classes, my church and my health and personal life seems to be negatively affected by this all and in the end I wonder if I've already lost. I am seeing the therapist in 2 weeks alone (We all are not available next Sat.) and the therapist said he wants to prepare me for the actual group therapy-me and all 4 of my sons. ???? I will be asking that my ex not be allowed at the office and that she wait elsewhere off of the premises.

 

[karma1]

Very frustrating!

I have read your threads and know how heartwrenching this all has been and continues to be.
First, I'd like to refer you again to SPARC, and the "Shrink Rap" forum on there as I think the emotions you are experiencing can be related to on there, ie, folks in your same situation.
Secondly, it is so destructive when one parent just won't let the child/ren love the other parent. I, for the life of me, will NEVER understand this.

I recommend that, while it is extremely heartbreaking, you acknowledge the childrens feelings (and we all know where they are coming from...) and try not to figure out if they are lying or not. If they state these things to the therapist, it will be dealt with as their feelings and they have a right to them, good or bad (or influenced by mom).

I think for dealing with mom and her obvious leading the children to say things at the therapists office--just say, "I'm sorry you feel this way and I will always love my children/or them" and walk away. OR pick up a magazine.
This is actually a good time for you to "shine"--if she's confronting you in this office or making accusations via the kids. "Shine" being that you do not fall into this trap--you take the high road, you smile and let her know it is not appropriate to talk about this issue at this time and the kids can talk to their therapist. Encourage them, in fact, to talk to their therapist about their feelings (no matter how hard it is for you to understand)

I am hoping you have read all there is to read about PAS too and Dean Tong is a wonderful advocate along with Dr. Gardner (although I believe he has passed on?).

Keep climbing that mountain, your children are worth it.

 

[Kazzie]

Keep the Faith!

Your kids have been brainwashed by their mother for so long it's going to take them sometime to come around. They are only saying they did not have a good time with you to please her. Give it some time, they will come around. Sooner or later they will realize that she is the one that kept you all apart & she'll get what comes to her. You have many supporters & just keep the faith-it will get better.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

It is inappropriate to put down one parent over the other in the waiting room, or anywhere for that matter. This being said, do your best to avoid it until you have the opportunity to speak with the therapist and address it in therapy both with and without the children. If this is what is happening, one can immagine what is happening when you are not around. Your children should be allowed private telephone conversations with you without her listening in/to. Although you are justifyably frustrated, you are not without responsibility regarding the threat you made to terminate parental rights if mom found another partner, that gave her ammunition enought to last for years. You have been baited, stop taking the bait.

Journaling is a very good idea as opposed to saying things out of frustration that you regret later.

Even if you are successful in reestablishing a parental relationship, mom simply had more access to them and they have to live with her for now, they may even feel that you abandoned them by allowing them to be taken away by their mom as opposed to fighting for them, even though you were trying to do what you thought best at the time not having the benefit of hindsight.

The fact that you have another relationship that fuels mom's vengence, is a factor to be examined in therapy. The times you all had together may have been preceived differently once mom heard about it, apparently she feels threatened. When you recite her history of leaving and comming back is typical of a borderline personality as are her tactics, this is a difficult clinical issue. Borderline women are often attracted to narcissistic men or relationships that generate attention as abandoment is a major fear and having control is their source of security, each fuels their opponents fire in many ways, some good, many bad and volatle.

Typically, in all relationships that fail, the things that attract a couple are the things that drive them apart when the delicate balance is broken. The fact that you were/are an interacial couple/family, may have something to do with how this had played out. Your children are dealing with many issues dividing their loyalities and undermining their selfesteem, so they are controlled by mom because it is something safe, something they know, how can they fight it on their own?

No doubt it will take more therapy than until November, don't see that in a negative light, but expect that mom will fight anything that she preceives as diverting her control, even having the court order therapy was a victory she can't tolerate. however it should be apparent to the therapist what is happening, enough to give the court a report and recommendations. Don't expect the worst, that is a self defeting attitude, self fulfilling prophacy. You will have to have faith that the therapist is objective, something your children will not understand and mom will try to counteract. You have to have faith and patience no matter how frustrated you become don't give up, don't lose sight of the goal, the best interest of your children and to have a relationship with them, not only as your minor children but later as adults.

Insofar as her refusal to provide access to the children's medical information. You already know there is something she is hiding or fears that you will use against her/ Be patient and document, don't bring it up in the waiting room in front of the children. Make it clear, that is a matter you are willing to discuss in an appropriate place, but not in front of the children.

Give your girlfriend special attention when she returns from the walkathon, 60 miles is a long way to walk and she does understand your frustration.

Hang in there

 

[casa]

What is the name of your state? CA

For some reason my last thread was locked, but I wanted to report my 2nd therapy session. I seem to be fighting a losing battle. I drove up to Fresno and got there at 11am for our second session. My two older children were the only ones that were there...the therapist wanted it that way. When one child went in, my ex and my oldest son was in the waiting area...(I have not been able to speak to the therapist of how I feel about her presence there). I made the mistake of speaking to this wicked lady...she started talking to me about why I am harrassing the children's providers and I told her if she would be an honest woman and give me the information I asked for I wouldn't have to ask. This didn't last very long, but then she cockily said, "1st child's name doesn't want you to be his father. I think he told you that over the phone once and you told him if he wanted it that way, then okay". By the way, one of the THREE times I spoke to this son in the last 12 months, he had told me he didn't want me as a father any more (WHY?! I had no clue) and he said he didn't need me...oh yeah and his mother was on the other line too. I was so hurt I asked him "do you have another father in your life? is your mother seeing someone who wants to be your father, because if that's the case and you really don't want me than I'll sign the papers" Of course I've regretted saying that since my ex throws it in my face in every email she sends. So, in front of me yesterday in therapy she asks "do you want him to be your father" as cocky and hurtful as she could possibly and he said "no." I was crushed. I said nothing as the therapist came out to get this son. When the next son was in the waiting room with us, she again tried to get me into conversation, but I hated her for purposely hurting me. I knew this would happen! After not seeing them for so long, I feel that they have been so alienated from me and this may be a losing battle. All I do is fight, fight and fight even more for them and now they don't want me. The therapist went on to tell me that they were very angry with me although were willing to give me another chance. I couldn't believe my ears. My children are lying! We had a wonderful visit last summer and even over the holidays at New Years...we constantly, me and my family and once my girlfriend and her family had conversations with each of my children in groups or family counsel and spoke of our challenges and our families, etc...we took pictures, we had parties, we had family counsel, and EVERY time I spoke to them, I spoke of our family and the divorce and how I wanted to be sure they knew we (their mom and I) both loved them very much and I told them I was aware of the hostile environment they had when we were married (no DV or abuse, but the constant arguing, the stress the not getting along, the lost jobs, the separations-ALL instigated by my ex, by the way when things went wrong, she'd pack them up and leave and then come back saying she was sorry, etc...) I made sure they understood that communication, OPEN communication was important and because my girlfriend is very anal retentive about communication and journaling, we journaled our visits, group family journal and individual journaling. My children have said I am mean and they didn't have a good time and hated visiting me, etc...I know in my heart that they are not telling the truth. My ex said "Oh, now you're calling our children liars!" I said, "NO! You don't have to be a LIAR necessarily to lie...like I am not a basketball player or baller, but I can play basketball. They aren't liars, but they sure are lying or making things up right now and you know this!" I told her. IT was an ugly experience. I can go on and on...I just feel sick right now. Miss Met, we may PM you. I know you all say "document, document, document,..." but all of this record keeping, my own job, my own classes, my church and my health and personal life seems to be negatively affected by this all and in the end I wonder if I've already lost. I am seeing the therapist in 2 weeks alone (We all are not available next Sat.) and the therapist said he wants to prepare me for the actual group therapy-me and all 4 of my sons. ???? I will be asking that my ex not be allowed at the office and that she wait elsewhere off of the premises.

What a witch! When you go in 2 wks, address the issue that Mom keeps putting you down and saying these things IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN.

I agree, in the future, either refuse to respond or respond with a generic "You know that's not true" or "I'm sorry you believe that". Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

In session WITH the children try to remember to voice the fact that you are doing this (therapy, commute etc.) in order to stay IN their lives. That you Love them no matter what~ and neither parent is perfect~ but you will all work it out in the therapy.

A trained therapist will see right through this...it's just going to take some time for the therapist to decipher it all and get an accurate history.

Keep Going~ If you quit, the witch wins & your children lose.

 

[daddenied]

I have read your threads and know how heartwrenching this all has been and continues to be.
First, I'd like to refer you again to SPARC, and the "Shrink Rap" forum on there as I think the emotions you are experiencing can be related to on there, ie, folks in your same situation.

I keep forgetting to go to that website...I'll go there more fften. Thanks!

Secondly, it is so destructive when one parent just won't let the child/ren love the other parent. I, for the life of me, will NEVER understand this.

Me too. I can't stand my ex, but even with these feelings I have now, I would NEVER keep them from her...NEVER! Unless she was harming them and she knows this.


I recommend that, while it is extremely heartbreaking, you acknowledge the childrens feelings (and we all know where they are coming from...) and try not to figure out if they are lying or not. If they state these things to the therapist, it will be dealt with as their feelings and they have a right to them, good or bad (or influenced by mom).

I know...it's just hard...I'll try to keep things in perspective.

I think for dealing with mom and her obvious leading the children to say things at the therapists office--just say, "I'm sorry you feel this way and I will always love my children/or them" and walk away. OR pick up a magazine.
This is actually a good time for you to "shine"--if she's confronting you in this office or making accusations via the kids. "Shine" being that you do not fall into this trap--you take the high road, you smile and let her know it is not appropriate to talk about this issue at this time and the kids can talk to their therapist. Encourage them, in fact, to talk to their therapist about their feelings (no matter how hard it is for you to understand)

I read this and thought "my girlfriend said almost the same thing" yet when she said I got upset and frustrated. I will do my best not to speak to her.

I am hoping you have read all there is to read about PAS too and Dean Tong is a wonderful advocate along with Dr. Gardner (although I believe he has passed on?).

Keep climbing that mountain, your children are worth it.

Thank you.

 

[daddenied]

Your kids have been brainwashed by their mother for so long it's going to take them sometime to come around. They are only saying they did not have a good time with you to please her. Give it some time, they will come around. Sooner or later they will realize that she is the one that kept you all apart & she'll get what comes to her. You have many supporters & just keep the faith-it will get better.

I know this, yet still am finding it very difficult to deal with. Crying for most of a 4-4 1/2 hour road trip home is extremely emotionally draining. Then Sunday comes around, I go to church and feel silly that I was so weak the day before. I guess I should be glad these therapy visits are only 1 day from Sunday when I feel like I can get refueled and my level of faith can be elevated again, until the next time. I appreciate ALL of you on this forum who have been patient with me and have followed my story. My girlfriend always says when I am on the verge of throwing it all away and giving up..."Our lives are so much better than millions of other people, and even if it sucks right now, life is generally still good." I hate when she says that. BUT...when I can step back, stop crying and take some deep breaths I agree with her. Thank you again!

 

[daddenied]

It is inappropriate to put down one parent over the other in the waiting room, or anywhere for that matter. This being said, do your best to avoid it until you have the opportunity to speak with the therapist and address it in therapy both with and without the children. If this is what is happening, one can immagine what is happening when you are not around. Your children should be allowed private telephone conversations with you without her listening in/to.

I don't know how this will happen. Our therapist told me he wanted me to concentrate on my oldest son and to call him every day until I see him again. I've done this now 3 times since Saturday and I never held my breath any of those times. I'm just saddened. I don't think I'll ever get to have private telephone conversations with them.


Although you are justifyably frustrated, you are not without responsibility regarding the threat you made to terminate parental rights if mom found another partner, that gave her ammunition enought to last for years. You have been baited, stop taking the bait.

I'm embarrassed and know I should never have said it. I had no excuse except the poor one of being extremely hurt and disrespected by a son I felt that of all of them I've given the most attention, because he most lacks self confidence especially with a younger brother who is 8 inches taller than he is and now at the same high school with him. I know...no excuses. I won't make that mistake again, besides the fact I didn't mean it.

Journaling is a very good idea as opposed to saying things out of frustration that you regret later.

I plan on taking the journals from last summer and New Years holiday visit to my therapist when I see him next plus take pictures of the visits with me, the children, their friends they made (who my sons now say they really didn't like )...so that the therapist can see them and maybe be able to talk to the boys about their feelings without their mom around, hopefully. I hate journaling, but my girlfriend is the queen of journaling...she has kept a journal faithfully for the last 25 years and loves it. I'm grateful that she enjoys it.


Even if you are successful in reestablishing a parental relationship, mom simply had more access to them and they have to live with her for now, they may even feel that you abandoned them by allowing them to be taken away by their mom as opposed to fighting for them, even though you were trying to do what you thought best at the time not having the benefit of hindsight.

The fact that you have another relationship that fuels mom's vengence, is a factor to be examined in therapy. The times you all had together may have been preceived differently once mom heard about it, apparently she feels threatened. When you recite her history of leaving and comming back is typical of a borderline personality as are her tactics, this is a difficult clinical issue. Borderline women are often attracted to narcissistic men or relationships that generate attention as abandoment is a major fear and having control is their source of security, each fuels their opponents fire in many ways, some good, many bad and volatle.

I really do believe my ex has all of those issues you've described. Our therapist has mentioned addressing my relationship and how the children could've had a wonderul time, but after going home and sharing it, then hearing mom, have changed their stories. ???? He mentioned possibly, later in the process having my girlfriend attend a session or two, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. I don't want her to be hurt any further. I think I can deal with them disrespecting me and hurting me, but she has always been so good to them and always treated them as if they were her own, with no discrimination while caring for her nephews. As ugly as their mother has been to my girlfriend, she has always when they were with us encouraged them to send her postcards which they did and she insisted that they call their mother at least twice a week while they were here. If it were up to me, I don't believe I would've thought twice about it because she nevers affords me the same respect. Again, I don't know...she can pretty much handle everything, it seems, but I just don't want MY problems to further hurt her. We'll see what our therapist says.

Typically, in all relationships that fail, the things that attract a couple are the things that drive them apart when the delicate balance is broken. The fact that you were/are an interacial couple/family, may have something to do with how this had played out. Your children are dealing with many issues dividing their loyalities and undermining their selfesteem, so they are controlled by mom because it is something safe, something they know, how can they fight it on their own?

No doubt it will take more therapy than until November, don't see that in a negative light, but expect that mom will fight anything that she preceives as diverting her control, even having the court order therapy was a victory she can't tolerate. however it should be apparent to the therapist what is happening, enough to give the court a report and recommendations. Don't expect the worst, that is a self defeting attitude, self fulfilling prophacy. You will have to have faith that the therapist is objective, something your children will not understand and mom will try to counteract. You have to have faith and patience no matter how frustrated you become don't give up, don't lose sight of the goal, the best interest of your children and to have a relationship with them, not only as your minor children but later as adults.

I work on refueling my faith every week. I know this post didn't show that huh?

Insofar as her refusal to provide access to the children's medical information. You already know there is something she is hiding or fears that you will use against her/ Be patient and document, don't bring it up in the waiting room in front of the children. Make it clear, that is a matter you are willing to discuss in an appropriate place, but not in front of the children.

Give your girlfriend special attention when she returns from the walkathon, 60 miles is a long way to walk and she does understand your frustration.

Hang in there

I will. I am excited for her to leave on Thursday. She deserves a break, especially away from me and this madness. Without her support and understanding this last year, I am sure I wouldn't be this far. Thank you again Miss Met for everything!

 

[daddenied]

What a witch! When you go in 2 wks, address the issue that Mom keeps putting you down and saying these things IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN.

I will.

I agree, in the future, either refuse to respond or respond with a generic "You know that's not true" or "I'm sorry you believe that". Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

My girlfriend said I should practice responding this way by role playing with her before going up again. She's silly. Then again, maybe I need to do this.

In session WITH the children try to remember to voice the fact that you are doing this (therapy, commute etc.) in order to stay IN their lives. That you Love them no matter what~ and neither parent is perfect~ but you will all work it out in the therapy.

A trained therapist will see right through this...it's just going to take some time for the therapist to decipher it all and get an accurate history.

Keep Going~ If you quit, the witch wins & your children lose.

I will trust that our therapist will do his best and be able to help all of us. Her winning any battle isn't really what bothers me...but you said "my children lose" and
I can't have that...at least not without a fight. Thank you again.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

I will. I am excited for her to leave on Thursday. She deserves a break, especially away from me and this madness. Without her support and understanding this last year, I am sure I wouldn't be this far. Thank you again Miss Met for everything!

As always, you are welcome
So mom has actually allowed you to talk to your oldest son on the telephone? This is progress of a sort, don't you think an adolescent male is going to resent his mother listening into his telephone conversations?

 

[daddenied]

As always, you are welcome
So mom has actually allowed you to talk to your oldest son on the telephone? This is progress of a sort, don't you think an adolescent male is going to resent his mother listening into his telephone conversations?

Actually no. I've called once a day since Saturday (3 times now) and have not received a return call. Only 2 days was I able to leave a message. Sunday the phone just rang off the hook...no answering machine picked up. Sorry. I confused you in my reply. I guess I shouldn't be negative thinking, while I am dialing "They won't answer or call me back" because then I jinx myself. I'm going to do what our therapist said and call every day even if he doesn't return my calls. I hope he does though.

 

[casa]

And on holidays/birthdays~ Maybe one of those pre-paid cellphones (relatively inexpensive & all the rage for teens) can help? Bring it up in therapy and maybe this way- they can call you or at least receive calls to a cellphone for direct communication (& no other line to listen in on)

Role-playing is effective since you get to 'practice' until the phrases/responses are second nature.

Keep Fighting.

 

[daddenied]

Sept. 14th summary of order posted

I just wanted to post what the summary of my last hearing was because I had a question and needed some clarification. This is what it said-I took it off line today.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Minute Order from Dept.: 23 Temporary Judge: (name of judge) Clerk: (Clerks name): 3:10-3:24 Nature of Hearingtherapist name) is sub in place of CYS for therapeutic visits. He/therapist/shl reasonably co-op & communicate w/mthr. Start 9/17/05 @ noon. All prior ord not mod remain ffe. M/o serve as ord of the crt. dlf 9/21/05
---------------------------------------------------------------

The part I want to address is where it says "all prior ordered not modified. My ex tried to tell this judge if it was necessary that ALL visits be on Saturdays and he just ignored it saying we would have to work it out, but our July 1st order states that EVERY Sat. from Aug. 13th and on until all sessions are done is when the sessions would be. Of course, the only times sessions would be off if therapist unavailable or if their actual activities are during the time period. I think she is trying to say that the children are ALL playing sports from 7am-1pm every Sat. which we all know is not true, especially because only 1 son plays basketball. I think she is insisting the 2 younger ones get signed up although it is late now, but just so they will too be busy and yet another obstable in my trying to get us all back on a healthy track. Anyway, just wondered if you could help me understand.

Thanks!

 

[daddenied]

Ugly Reply From Sons' Dentist...

Hello Miss Met and Casa.

I was totally shocked to get this email message from my son's dentist. We'll call him Dr. N. I want to give a little cronological summary of my relationship with them first.

I contacted Dr. N's office for the first time on Aug. 1st after requesting information from my ex and receiving an email from her directing me to them as she would not give me any information she stated was irrelevant. ????They sent me a one page ledger showing my name on it as well as my owing finance charges due my neglecting to pay them since Mar. 2005. (Again, to refresh your memories I had never known until late July that the children had seen this dentist). I replied to their one page ledger on Aug. 15th (14 days after the first letter) letting them know that I had never lived at my ex's address, my name should be in the father field of the children's records and should not be on the bills and statements sent to my ex's addrss, also telling them I would not be paying any finance charges and that my insurance already told me they would be paying the balance on Aug. 25th. I also clarified what I wanted and needed from them. There was no response to that letter. On Aug. 30th, 15 days later, I wrote again, asking for their help as well as letting them know I received confirmation that there was a zero balance and that my insurance company paid the entire balance and possibly even overpaid. On Sept. 6th I received a call from his secretary who told me she was calling to tell me that I owed them nothing and there was no balance due on the account and that there was a dispute about an overpayment from my insurance co. but they sent a refund. Cool, I thought, but THAT was not my main concern, questions or request. I still was not being given a yes answer to records. That same day Sept. 6th my ex emailed me saying that the dentist office told her that due to the trouble I caused I now owed $250 to them and to send them payment. On Sept. 7th I called and left a message for the secretary I had spoken to and sent an email message to explain what had happened and to asked her to clarify the message my ex now gave me after we had already spoken. The secretary called me a few days later leaving me a message. I returned her call to discuss my letter. She explained that my name was no longer listed as the head of household of my ex's address and was no longer listed on the financial obligation agreement signed by my ex in Feb. of this year, yet having only my name on all paperwork noted. The secretary said she would send me what I requested. I was glad and thanked her as it was the first time that office had actually replied and helped me...at least that is what I thought. Last week I received the same one page ledger showing nothing but charges and insurance payments next to each child's name...again, NOT what I asked for. The only difference from the page was that they now showed my ex's name where my name was originally and where they had my name in the ledger next to months of finance charges, it showed my ex's name with a credit of the finance charges stating "charged in error". ??? I was a bit frustrated by that and then received the email my ex sent last week (I'm sorry I don't recall posting it, so here it is):
---------------------------------------------------------------
Please consider this letter notification that if you do not cease and desist the constant haranguing and barrage of threatening letters to all of the children’s providers, they will no longer provide health and dental care to our children. Threatening to have the professionals’ licenses pulled and reporting them to the B.B.B. is no way to win favor with the offices. Prior to July, 2005 when you began your assault, the boys and I had wonderful working relationships with all of them. If need be, I will take this to court but I would prefer you stop of your own accord.

You are alienating the boys and turning them into pariahs. They’ve been seeing the same primary care physician for the past 3 years, have only seen Dr. N ONCE for a cleaning and have been to the orthodontic offices for consultations and yet they’re already stating that they’re going to drop and/or not start the children as patients because of your actions.

There is not one significant piece of information that you could receive from any of them. The boys have only seen them for routine check-ups or ailments and you’ve never been billed a co-pay. What possible purpose does it serve to have copies of every piece of paperwork for the past 3 years?

---------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, the letters I sent, NEVER one time mentions the phrase suing them, or having their professional licenses pulled. I used the SPARC forum form letter and just input our names in the fields where I had to do that. I also let them know that after Sept. 30th, if I had not received anything, which gave them all about 2 months, I stated I would be forced to contact their ethics and governing boards for help in acquiring the information that I had a right to. Those were my words. I could not believe her email. And, more than that, I could not believe that the providers were supposedly threatening not to service our children because their father was requesting their records. Another thing is that I am NOT asking anyone for 3 years of records. I'm asking Dr. N for a copy of my children's records in their files from Feb. of this year...he only started seeing them this year. The Ortho would only have to send me what he has from 5 weeks ago when he first started seeing my children. The only other person I sent that letter to was the therapist who saw my oldest son without my permission, because my ex is now saying or told the judge on the 14th that our son continues to see her therapist friend now over 3 years. That is not what I was told by the therapist. So, all I am asking her for is a years worth of records of my sons visits.

I decided not to respond just yet to her email and on Monday I forwarded this email to the providers to clear the air on the whole threatening deal that I know my ex has fueled with them. It was a simple letter saying I received an email that concerned me from my ex and I specifically wrote the dentist thanking him for the ledgers sent, but letting them know that I still wanted the kids' records. It was short and sweet and the only question I posed was that I had hoped that they really were not threatening to drop my children as patients just because I was wanting information from them. I explained that my there was a misunderstanding and I appreciated them responding to me and not my ex to my requests. THIS is the reply I received that day from Dr. N. Remember I only received 2 phone calls from his secretary and 2 1 page ledgers in the mail from his secretary. Nothing more. This is what he wrote:

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We have spent an inordinate amount of time fulfilling your multiple requests for records. We have sent you multiple copies. You have the "records". We will not respond any further to your threats. I personally look forward to any and all attorney, or governmental, or private proceedings. I enjoy my profession far to much to be continuously harassed by someone whom I've never met. We will no longer respond to any communication from you.

Dr. N
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Needless to say I wanted to scream! I didn't. I wanted to though. I have not responded to this man and want to know what my options are. Am I just screwed and out of luck and will NEVER get records from these people or can I really go their ethics and governing boards and ask them for help in acquiring them...NOT SUING the providers, but just getting a copy of their records?

Please help. I probably won't be on line as my computer is being serviced tomorrow through Monday but please direct me in the right direction.

Thanks!

 

[casa]

Hello Miss Met and Casa.

I was totally shocked to get this email message from my son's dentist. We'll call him Dr. N. I want to give a little cronological summary of my relationship with them first.

I contacted Dr. N's office for the first time on Aug. 1st after requesting information from my ex and receiving an email from her directing me to them as she would not give me any information she stated was irrelevant. ????They sent me a one page ledger showing my name on it as well as my owing finance charges due my neglecting to pay the
m since Mar. 2005. (Again, to refresh your memories I had never known until late July that the children had seen this dentist). I replied to their one page ledger on Aug. 15th (14 days after the first letter) letting them know that I had never lived at my ex's address, my name should be in the father field of the children's records and should not be on the bills and statements sent to my ex's addrss, also telling them I would not be paying any finance charges and that my insurance already told me they would be paying the balance on Aug. 25th. I also clarified what I wanted and needed from them. There was no response to that letter. On Aug. 30th, 15 days later, I wrote again, asking for their help as well as letting them know I received confirmation that there was a zero balance and that my insurance company paid the entire balance and possibly even overpaid. On Sept. 6th I received a call from his secretary who told me she was calling to tell me that I owed them nothing and there was no balance due on the account and that there was a dispute about an overpayment from my insurance co. but they sent a refund. Cool, I thought, but THAT was not my main concern, questions or request. I still was not being given a yes answer to records. That same day Sept. 6th my ex emailed me saying that the dentist office told her that due to the trouble I caused I now owed $250 to them and to send them payment. On Sept. 7th I called and left a message for the secretary I had spoken to and sent an email message to explain what had happened and to asked her to clarify the message my ex now gave me after we had already spoken. The secretary called me a few days later leaving me a message. I returned her call to discuss my letter. She explained that my name was no longer listed as the head of household of my ex's address and was no longer listed on the financial obligation agreement signed by my ex in Feb. of this year, yet having only my name on all paperwork noted. The secretary said she would send me what I requested. I was glad and thanked her as it was the first time that office had actually replied and helped me...at least that is what I thought. Last week I received the same one page ledger showing nothing but charges and insurance payments next to each child's name...again, NOT what I asked for. The only difference from the page was that they now showed my ex's name where my name was originally and where they had my name in the ledger next to months of finance charges, it showed my ex's name with a credit of the finance charges stating "charged in error". ??? I was a bit frustrated by that and then received the email my ex sent last week (I'm sorry I don't recall posting it, so here it is):
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Please consider this letter notification that if you do not cease and desist the constant haranguing and barrage of threatening letters to all of the children’s providers, they will no longer provide health and dental care to our children. Threatening to have the professionals’ licenses pulled and reporting them to the B.B.B. is no way to win favor with the offices. Prior to July, 2005 when you began your assault, the boys and I had wonderful working relationships with all of them. If need be, I will take this to court but I would prefer you stop of your own accord.

You are alienating the boys and turning them into pariahs. They’ve been seeing the same primary care physician for the past 3 years, have only seen Dr. N ONCE for a cleaning and have been to the orthodontic offices for consultations and yet they’re already stating that they’re going to drop and/or not start the children as patients because of your actions.

There is not one significant piece of information that you could receive from any of them. The boys have only seen them for routine check-ups or ailments and you’ve never been billed a co-pay. What possible purpose does it serve to have copies of every piece of paperwork for the past 3 years?

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First of all, the letters I sent, NEVER one time mentions the phrase suing them, or having their professional licenses pulled. I used the SPARC forum form letter and just input our names in the fields where I had to do that. I also let them know that after Sept. 30th, if I had not received anything, which gave them all about 2 months, I stated I would be forced to contact their ethics and governing boards for help in acquiring the information that I had a right to. Those were my words. I could not believe her email. And, more than that, I could not believe that the providers were supposedly threatening not to service our children because their father was requesting their records. Another thing is that I am NOT asking anyone for 3 years of records. I'm asking Dr. N for a copy of my children's records in their files from Feb. of this year...he only started seeing them this year. The Ortho would only have to send me what he has from 5 weeks ago when he first started seeing my children. The only other person I sent that letter to was the therapist who saw my oldest son without my permission, because my ex is now saying or told the judge on the 14th that our son continues to see her therapist friend now over 3 years. That is not what I was told by the therapist. So, all I am asking her for is a years worth of records of my sons visits.

I decided not to respond just yet to her email and on Monday I forwarded this email to the providers to clear the air on the whole threatening deal that I know my ex has fueled with them. It was a simple letter saying I received an email that concerned me from my ex and I specifically wrote the dentist thanking him for the ledgers sent, but letting them know that I still wanted the kids' records. It was short and sweet and the only question I posed was that I had hoped that they really were not threatening to drop my children as patients just because I was wanting information from them. I explained that my there was a misunderstanding and I appreciated them responding to me and not my ex to my requests. THIS is the reply I received that day from Dr. N. Remember I only received 2 phone calls from his secretary and 2 1 page ledgers in the mail from his secretary. Nothing more. This is what he wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------------
We have spent an inordinate amount of time fulfilling your multiple requests for records. We have sent you multiple copies. You have the "records". We will not respond any further to your threats. I personally look forward to any and all attorney, or governmental, or private proceedings. I enjoy my profession far to much to be continuously harassed by someone whom I've never met. We will no longer respond to any communication from you.

Dr. N
----------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say I wanted to scream! I didn't. I wanted to though. I have not responded to this man and want to know what my options are. Am I just screwed and out of luck and will NEVER get records from these people or can I really go their ethics and governing boards and ask them for help in acquiring them...NOT SUING the providers, but just getting a copy of their records?

Please help. I probably won't be on line as my computer is being serviced tomorrow through Monday but please direct me in the right direction.

Thanks!

Is the X single? Is she dating the dentist? I am apalled at this letter. It makes absolutely no sense~ as a parent can request copies as many times as they want...and with 2 parents who live separate- frequently duplicate info. on an ongoing basis. You have a Federal Right to records pertaining to your children.

I find it suspicious you recieved a letter from X and the dentist in this time span.

It's up to you if you want to respond. You sent them the SPARC letters- the dentist has obviously formed a bias. ie; your X has 'sold' him/her.

Focus on the goal. The judge ignored what he/she did for a reason. Go to therapy- if X misses, document that in and out of therapy.

Your X is acting desperate.