noise violation in small town. Looking for constitutional rights.

[artmaker]

Hello, I live in a very small town in SW Michigan.
There is ONE bar three houses over from me.
I don't mind noise from them. It IS a bar after all. I've lived her more than 10 years now and never had a problem.
Yesterday, they decided to set up LOUD outdoor speakers, with amplifiers, and did a kerioki night. It is SO loud that two people cannot carry on a conversation in my own back yard. There is a house RIGHT next to this bar and they have a little baby! A friend lives two blocks away she she could not hear her TV unless she closed all the windows!
I put a big boom box in my back yard on FULL BLAST along with another one I use in my garage also at FULL blast and it still did not drown out their noise.
I went to the bar and talked with the owner. I asked if this was a special occasion? Wedding? So on. Thinking this might be a one time thing I'd just put up. But no. They plan on doing this from about 6pm until 10pm and will do this once a month now!

Seems there is no sound ordinance in Van Buren county Michigan. Sherrif cannot "enforce" anything if there is no ordinance to enforce.

I seem to remember reading in the US constitution somewhere about rights to "peacable use of ones own property." But I've spent over an hour searching and cannot find this.

I intend to go to our town meeting this Tuesday along with several other angry neighbors. It may well end there. IF our board agrees this was over the top. But it would help if I could print out a copy of our constitutional rights being violated here!
Don't need a local ordinance if it's THIS loud do we? Especially if I can show in the constitution where this is a violation!

1. Opinions please?
2. If anyone can point me to an exact section in the constitution of the US, or in the Michigan constitution regarding noise violations that would really help.

Thanks in advance.

 

[justalayman]

I doubt you will get anywhere with the constitutional theory.

You are doing the correct thing by going to the council meeting. You may look towards other ordinances that may apply such as ; disturbing the peace, or common nuisance ordinances.

If there is not an ordinance that can stop the insanity, then push the council memebers to create one. I generally do not advocate too many laws but this obviously needs to be addressed in some manner.

BTW: I like the irony of trying to drown out their noise by creating your own louder noise.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

You have no constitutional rights in this matter. What you MAY have is a violation of quiet enjoyment. However, since you didn't even bother to tell us during what time of the day or night this was occurring, I don't know what you expect.

 

[FLMommy]

You have no constitutional rights in this matter. What you MAY have is a violation of quiet enjoyment. However, since you didn't even bother to tell us during what time of the day or night this was occurring, I don't know what you expect.

"They plan on doing this from about 6pm until 10pm and will do this once a month now!"

 

[artmaker]

Hi all,
justalayman, you said...
disturbing the peace, or common nuisance ordinances.
This is good. HOW do I find out if there is a state wide code on this?

(FLMOMMY thanks for pointing out to that previous person I DID post the times.)

So you all know, this is not just a case of I can hear music I don't like. This is REALLY loud!
I happen to live right behind our town firestation. Every day at 6pm they "test" the siren.
It is LOUD! You cannot hear someone speaking. BUT it only lasts a few seconds.
This bar music went on from about 6pm till 10:30. JUST AS LOUD!!!!
I am NOT exagerating the noise level here.

The town meeting will be interesting.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

you will not find such in state statutes. They will be local ordinances and I doubt seriously if you'll succeed. Obviously, you live in a commercial zone or in proximity to one and the bar has the right to operate within the law.

Which means either buy headphones or deal with it until 10 p.m.

 

[artmaker]

to BelizeBreeze;
Commercial area???? This town has one church. One small country store. A volinteer firestation and this tiny bar. That's IT! VERY rural, very quite! Lots of homes! Population of about 250 people!
I KNOW there is something somewhere protecting ones rights to peacable use of ones own property but my searches come up with all sorts of totally unrelated crap.

I know there is no ordinance in this town. The sherrif's department told me that much. They "think" the state requires noise to be off by midnight. Not a lot of detail there.

This bar just started this and before they totally ruin one out of every four saturdays, I want to GET an ordinance. Anything I can bring to the town meeting to support the fact that this is above and beyond any NORMAL noise coming out of a bar would help.
So far I find lots of stuff from the UK. Not much else.

I wonder if this bar had to get a permit for outdoor music? And if so, how would one find it read it's details? Or get it revoked?

I'll find out at our next meeting.

OH as for your remark about get headphones or deal with it, gee thanks! I had TWO BOOM BOXES ON FULL BLAST and it STILL didn't compete with their noise from THREE houses down the street!!!!!! And just how can I carry on a normal conversation with my husband or kid when I have to SHOUT???? Headphones? Deal with it? Swell.

 

[HappyHusband]

to BelizeBreeze;
Commercial area???? This town has one church. One small country store. A volinteer firestation and this tiny bar. That's IT! VERY rural, very quite! Lots of homes! Population of about 250 people!
I KNOW there is something somewhere protecting ones rights to peacable use of ones own property but my searches come up with all sorts of totally unrelated crap.

I know there is no ordinance in this town. The sherrif's department told me that much. They "think" the state requires noise to be off by midnight. Not a lot of detail there.

This bar just started this and before they totally ruin one out of every four saturdays, I want to GET an ordinance. Anything I can bring to the town meeting to support the fact that this is above and beyond any NORMAL noise coming out of a bar would help.
So far I find lots of stuff from the UK. Not much else.

I wonder if this bar had to get a permit for outdoor music? And if so, how would one find it read it's details? Or get it revoked?

I'll find out at our next meeting.

OH as for your remark about get headphones or deal with it, gee thanks! I had TWO BOOM BOXES ON FULL BLAST and it STILL didn't compete with their noise from THREE houses down the street!!!!!! And just how can I carry on a normal conversation with my husband or kid when I have to SHOUT???? Headphones? Deal with it? Swell.

I wonder if this bar had to get a permit for outdoor music?
If the place is too small to have any ordinances, do you think they would require permits for this?

Do you have any friends with the electric company? You know, to do some regular line maintenance on a Saturday night?

 

[BelizeBreeze]

to BelizeBreeze;
Commercial area???? This town has one church. One small country store. A volinteer firestation and this tiny bar. That's IT! VERY rural, very quite! Lots of homes! Population of about 250 people!
I KNOW there is something somewhere protecting ones rights to peacable use of ones own property but my searches come up with all sorts of totally unrelated crap.

I know there is no ordinance in this town. The sherrif's department told me that much. They "think" the state requires noise to be off by midnight. Not a lot of detail there.

This bar just started this and before they totally ruin one out of every four saturdays, I want to GET an ordinance. Anything I can bring to the town meeting to support the fact that this is above and beyond any NORMAL noise coming out of a bar would help.
So far I find lots of stuff from the UK. Not much else.

I wonder if this bar had to get a permit for outdoor music? And if so, how would one find it read it's details? Or get it revoked?

I'll find out at our next meeting.

OH as for your remark about get headphones or deal with it, gee thanks! I had TWO BOOM BOXES ON FULL BLAST and it STILL didn't compete with their noise from THREE houses down the street!!!!!! And just how can I carry on a normal conversation with my husband or kid when I have to SHOUT???? Headphones? Deal with it? Swell.

If the bar is not breaking any local ordinance or state law, then you're out of luck. No matter how much you stomp your feet and act like a two year-old.

 

[xylene]

Consult with liquor laws as well.

Hello, I live in a very small town in SW Michigan.
There is ONE bar three houses over from me.
I don't mind noise from them. It IS a bar after all. I've lived her more than 10 years now and never had a problem.
Yesterday, they decided to set up LOUD outdoor speakers, with amplifiers, and did a kerioki night. It is SO loud that two people cannot carry on a conversation in my own back yard. There is a house RIGHT next to this bar and they have a little baby! A friend lives two blocks away she she could not hear her TV unless she closed all the windows!
I put a big boom box in my back yard on FULL BLAST along with another one I use in my garage also at FULL blast and it still did not drown out their noise.
I went to the bar and talked with the owner. I asked if this was a special occasion? Wedding? So on. Thinking this might be a one time thing I'd just put up. But no. They plan on doing this from about 6pm until 10pm and will do this once a month now!

Seems there is no sound ordinance in Van Buren county Michigan. Sherrif cannot "enforce" anything if there is no ordinance to enforce.

I seem to remember reading in the US constitution somewhere about rights to "peacable use of ones own property." But I've spent over an hour searching and cannot find this.

I intend to go to our town meeting this Tuesday along with several other angry neighbors. It may well end there. IF our board agrees this was over the top. But it would help if I could print out a copy of our constitutional rights being violated here!
Don't need a local ordinance if it's THIS loud do we? Especially if I can show in the constitution where this is a violation!

1. Opinions please?
2. If anyone can point me to an exact section in the constitution of the US, or in the Michigan constitution regarding noise violations that would really help.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/CIS_LCC_retailguide2003_86837_7.pdf

If they are offering prizes, no matter how insignificant, they may indeed require a permit.

If they are permitting consumption of drinks outdoors without a suitable license for outdoor consumption, that may be a violation.

Other items are a possibility.

If things do not go well locally, it would not hurt to at least call the MLCC, the numbers are in the last pages of the linked PDF.

 

[badapple40]

Why don't you sue them for creating a nuisance and move for an injunction prohibiting them from using the loud speakers in the evening in the future?

 

[stealth2]

Why don't you just go join in on those Saturdays? Might be fun!

 

[artmaker]

follow up

OK, thought I'd post what happened.
Over a dozen house holds were represented at our town meeting. Seems I was not the only one miffed about this.
Oh, thanks BelizeBreeze for your thoughtful remark about acting like a 2 year old. Really helpful there boy! You should have seen the crowd of "2 year olds!"

I stated the case as I was the first to go to the bar and talk directly with the owner. The owners, a couple, were in attendance. They listened to the case, agreed it WAS loud. In fact I left a phone message at our town board supervisors phone and I'm sure he heard the music!

Then the wife (I'll leave names out of this.) spoke up and stated that she wasn't there on Saturday. She "actually took a day off." She said she was very sorry, that every time she is off something happens. That they have had entertainment at this bar for many years. She didn't want to hurt the community etc etc etc.... (good save!) I followed that with yes, they do have entertainment and no one has ever had a problem with sound eminating from a bar. In fact they do kerioki on Wed too but inside. No problem as it's muffled, INSIDE sound. Or at least not as loud as these stadium grade speakers mounted on posts OUTSIDE are over and above normal bar sounds.
The board and just about everyone in the room agreed.

The board asked if she had licencing etc. They do. In fact this bar has been here for ages and always had "entertainment." Again we went around with the fact that entertainment did not spill across the county until this!

I asked the board how we could go about setting some kind of limit. Or sound ordinance so the next time their "entertainment" blasted people out of their homes we have something to enforce.
Well this seems to be more complicated than I expected. There is a local racetrack north of us and they said they tried an ordinance and fist fights broke out over the decible readings! Then people might decide someones motorcycle is too loud, or a chain saw etc.... It's hard to enforce. I can see his point. But gees! Then other people started horning in about families, kids live here etc etc....

The bar owner again stated she was sorry, the volume would be kept down, and that they only have this outdoor thing scheduled for two more saturdays. One in July and one in Aug. It would be over by 11pm. (Swell.) The board looked at me and said is this ok? I said sure, we'll see how it goes.

I noticed her husband, also an owner, and who I spoke to that night as did many other towns people that evening, said not one word! ha! SHE wears the pants. He likes to think he does, but nope! yea, unless she's there and he's gone and something happens..... interchangable pants!

So we shall see. I am just glad so many other folks showed up. I think our point was well made. Hope this is the end of it all. I doubt it though. This bar is up for sale. Lord help us with the NEXT owners!

Oh, and the last post here to me was to "join in it sounds like fun????"
I'm sorry, but a bunch of (mostly) out of town drunks screaming into a loud micraphone at the top of their lungs really BAD like they THINK they should be on American Idol or something is NOT my idea of fun! Should I mention all the crap I put up with year round when they spill out into their cars at closing time? The parking lot is adjacent to my back yard!!!! I get the tossed garbage, beer cans, NOISE, in winter a snomobile moron went OVER the marked trail fence and ran over my cat right behind MY garage, on private property! $240.00 at the vet he died anyway!!!! Caught one moron pissing on someone ELSES car!!! When he, and the drivers of the car he spilled into flipped me the bird, I reported the plate number to the sherrif!
So no. I have NO plans to EVER patronize that business again. Ever!
Shame really. We bought our house from the owners. The owners before them are personal friends of ours. This place is known around here for good country food. NOT kerioki! But after this? Never again. I am not alone either. One of my neighbors told me they gave her daughter a drink with a chewed straw! They haven't been back since. For a place who gets most of their business through word of mouth, they really blew it.

Well lets hope that's the end of this. Two more saturdays. (Thank GOD, I'll be away both times!)

 

[BelizeBreeze]

And guess what? You're still acting like a 2 year-old. As I said, if there is no noise ordinance then you have no case.

 

[artmaker]

Agh, ya know? YOU need to go somewhere else! Maybe if YOU were living right next to this noise YOU would understand! The sherrif's department got DOZENS of calls. Are they ALL "2 year olds???"

This forum is supposed to be where people get advice. HELPFUL advice. Not be called names.

I DID in fact get some helpful information here.
Thanks to those who posted that.