noise violation in small town. Looking for constitutional rights.

[GaAtty]

Just one more opinion to add to the collection....You could sue them for nuisance. In property law, you cannot have something that comes from your property that is a nuisance to nearby properties, such as smelly smoke or odors, or loud machinery, etc. It is certainly easier to get them to agree to quiet down, and cheaper and faster than a lawsuit. But if all else fails, you and the neighbors get together and all chip in to pay the attorney to file it.

 

[artmaker]

Hi and thank you! It's good to know that even with no ordinance there is an option.

But this is such a small town, and with as many house holds represented at our town meeting over this as well as the owners, I think our point has been made.
This bar gets most of it's business through word of mouth. Pissing off the town they sit in is not smart. So again, we'll see how the next two saturdays go but I betcha it will be MUCh quieter. I think the owner thought it was only me complaining. In fact half the town was pretty pissed.

They got the point. I hope!

 

[magic55]

Go and cry about it. Thats about all you can do. ohhh Grow Up. Maybe Move. I am guessing the bar has been there alot longer then you. Not only that they only do it on a saturday for 4 hours. Grow up.

 

[artmaker]

What is with these people who post here and tell ME to "grow up???"
YOU should have heard this!!!!!!!!! There is NO reason anyone should have to shout in their own back yard just to have a conversation over the drunks screaming into a micraphone!!!!!!

Damn stadium size speakers in a SMALL town full of families with kids, retired old people and so on is NOT RIGHT!!!!

And the TOWN BOARD and half the town seems to agree!

Please don't get on this board when someone is looking for help and insult ok? That does NO good at all.

 

[magic55]

Whats right isnt always whats right. They have a right to play there music as loud as they want unless there are laws against it. They have been there alot longer then u. GROW UP.

 

[artmaker]

NO it is NOT right to BLAST on CONCERT STAGE equipment DRUNKS SCREAMING into a mike in a small town full of RESIDENTS!!!!!!!

There is no ordinance here because until now none has ever been needed.

THIS WILL STOP! And I think the showing (reminding you AGAIN) of half the town at the board meeting made it's point!

Stop telling me to grow up. It's rude!

 

[justalayman]

NO it is NOT right to BLAST on CONCERT STAGE equipment DRUNKS SCREAMING into a mike in a small town full of RESIDENTS!!!!!!!

There is no ordinance here because until now none has ever been needed.

THIS WILL STOP! And I think the showing (reminding you AGAIN) of half the town at the board meeting made it's point!

Stop telling me to grow up. It's rude!

Calm down dude. Just ignore those that are here only to antagonize.
You seem to be on the right path and several have given you some avenues to explore if the excessively loud noise continues. Badapple and ga Atty (both attorneys I believe) suggested suing for a nuisance and asking for an injunction to stop the noise.

Even if the noise is abated, you might be wise to continue to push for a noise or nuisance ordinance for the next time.

Now this is a personal comment;
Since you do live beside, behind or whatever proximity to a bar, you do need to understand that there is a legally allowable number of things that are going to annoy you. It does seem like it would be a proper thing to consider moving. I know that I would not live next door to a bar. I hate the idea of all them drunk guys peeing in my yard or pool on their way by.

Another action you can take is to get all of the offended folks together and head over to the bar. Now you cannot and probably will not be allowed to sit there without purchasing something, you can probably get away for quite some time with a very minimal purchase. If enough of you do this together, the bar will notice the loss of revenue and may listen to the complaints.

 

[magic55]

No it may not be morally right in your view but its perfectly LEGAL. Like I said whats right always isnt whats right. It being a small town, a big town, has nothing to do with it. That bar has been there long before you, why would you move next to a bar...that stuff must be expected. Its one a week for 4 hours a day you need to get over it.

Dont sue them for nuisane cause you will lose and waste alot of money. If you dont believe me do it.

Trust me half the town showing up at a board meeting dosent change anything...they boardmembers might act like they care but they dont....trust me on that one, its what I do for a living.

 

[artmaker]

I do appreciate the good advice here. I am willing to give the bar owners the benifit of the doubt, for now at least, when she said she didn't realize it was so loud and it won't be next time.

And so you all know, I really don't mind hearing bar noises from a bar. Been here very happily for over a decade now. This was a first, and VERY unusual!
Also this is no inner city low life type bar. People that go there are mostly from Chicago who come up here to their "second" homes and cut loose on the weekend. Still, screaming drunks are screaming drunks no matter how much money or education they have. Problems have been rare though. Actually, this bar's owners are missing the point! NO one comes up here for kerioki. They come for the country atmosphere and good food! I don't know why they are trying this. The number of cars in the parking lot sure was no different than any other weekend.

As for lawyers? Naaa. At least not for one occasion. Can't afford that anyway.
BUT! I CAN afford a cheap electric guitar and some rented amplifiers of my own. The guy with the new baby RIGHT next to this bar is up for this one too. We need a LOT of practice if you get my drift. IF theirs is so loud, we will have to be louder. Fight fire with fire I say! Bet the town board passes an ordinance after they hear ME play! (grin.)

But... lets see. It's just as likely the sound level WILL go down next round. Gees, just do it inside! No one has a problem with that.

 

[Hangover]

Art I Also grew up in a small town in SW MI.
Now I breezed over the replies and this might have been covered in them but it seems like you might want to go to the township meetings and bring up your concerns.
Also local Law Enforcement is a good place to start IE Sheriff's Dept, MSP, anyone that will listen as there are Disturbing the peace laws in almost every area of MI.
If a Law Enforcement agency gets to many calls on a paticular establishment, they will usually have the Liquor Board which is responsible for issuance of their Liquor Licence take a closer look at them also.

 

[artmaker]

Hi "hangover." (cool name.)
I should probably post a final follow up here.
I DID go to a meeting. And after I passed flyers around to all the home owners within earshot of this noise a lot of people came too. As did the owners of this bar.

Enforcing a noise ordinance, (or first setting one.) Would be virtually impossible. There is a local race track not far from here and they tried a noise ordinance there. People were getting into fist fights over how many decibles were actually being produced. Very hard to enforce. So our town board really didn't want to go there.

Funny thing, the one owner, the wife, said she was unaware of just how loud they were and didn't want to upset anyone in this little town. We are after all her best customers. blah blah. I noticed her husband, said NOTHING! HE was aware. I spoke to him personally. As did a few other neighbors I found out. His reply was basically tough! Deal with it! But she is more the business woman. Smooth everything with everyone. As it SHOULD have been from him!

They agreed they would turn down the volume. Said they had two more nights planned. The board asked all of us complainers if this would be ok and since I seemed to be the "speaker" I said sure. Basically I know there will be music and noise coming from that place. As long as I can have a conversation in my own back yard without screaming I can put up.

So two more saturdays they had their karioke night and they DID turn it way down. Yes everyone around could still hear it but it was not so abnoxious you couldn't hear anything else. I can live with that. I know what kind of business that is. Not a problem. Just keep it reasonable ya know?

I consider this case closed.

And... it pays to complain! Damn shame, there should have been some reasonable action taken when I first brought it up to him. But no, took half the town complaining but hey, what ever works.

 

[artmaker]

It starts again!!!! Advice needed please.

OH MY GOD! I thought I was done with this. At a town meeting, many town people showed up and our business owner swore up and down she didn't know, didn't mean to disturb, it won't happen again, they have two more nights scheduled but it would be turned down.... And in fact it was. I thought we were done.

NO! Friday, Oct 27, a LIVE BAND, WITH amplifiers started up around 7pm!
I am not kidding here, I have a very heavy indian blanket over my living room window and IT WAS VIBRATING! My son had a very early day planned for Saturday. We all had to be up at FIVE AM. NO way he could sleep with this boom boom boom noise!

My husband came home and was as irritated as we both were already. He calls our local cop who I already know can't do anything. There is no sound ordinance to enforce. Besides he was busy on real emergancies.
Next I called our town board super on my cell from the yard so he could hear exactly why I was calling. He explained there really isn't anything our little board can do as this is a state issued licence.

By nine pm, I was FURIOUS. (to put it nicely.) I called the bar myself. Got the SAME OWNER who swore up and down she didn't know last time. Well she is THERE now so that excuse wouldn't fly. First she claimed it was some fundraising charity. Swell! So WHY does the WHOLE TOWN HAVE TO HEAR IT??? You can't have a fundraiser within your business?
Then I got the "Im running a business here." (Now is it a charity or for profit?)
But again, I said, why does YOUR business have to shake MY WALLS?
And then, this conversation got really wierd. We actually just bought our house from them. And she pointed out how "you wouldn't have your house if not for us." Now what in blazes does that have to do with your bar blasting noise for the whole town to put up with for hours on end??????????
This bar has been here for generations and only THIS YEAR did she decide to start this stadium entertainment crap OUTSIDE! They never needed that before.

Then she threatened to call an inspector on me because I have clutter around my place. (yes I am a bit of a slob but that is not illegal!)
At this point I was seeing red! GLASS HOUSES ya know? Last time I ate in her dive of a place there were mice running around! We have not gone in there since. My neighbors kid was given a drink with a CHEWED straw in it!!!!! There is greese on every wall, stains on the cealing from roof leaks. And SHE is going to call an inspector on ME?????
Again what the !!!! does that have to do with NOISE???????

agh!

So.... This is where I need help.
Obviously her word is worthless. And if the town board really has it's hands tied, it's time to take this to the next level or it will only go on over and over.

1. How can I find out the EXACT wording on a liquor/entertainment licence. Specifically in Van Buren county Michigan. Keeler township!
I betcha somewhere in there it is understood to be INSIDE! Not with out door stadium grade speakers in a tiny quite rural town. That might end it there if I can find it in writing right in her licence.

2. I need to find out if there is any way our town board can enact a need to get a permit for "outdoor amplified music." This would still allow them to have outdoor "entertainment." Like acustic? Or a singer? Just NO SPEAKERS that cover the whole damn town and shake my walls!!!!! Do that INSIDE. Music from inside that place, no matter how loud does not shake the walls. And unlike a sound ordinance which they explained is hard to enact, and impossible to enforce, this would directly target the only noise in this town.
THIS DAMN BAR! And it would give the board, and residents, a say in how often, how long, how loud etc. Seems that no one has any say right now.

3. If neither of these can be found off the internet, (and so far I'm striking out here,) I'd need a lawyer to help dig up information or possibly file suit. But.... what catagory do you look for this? Lawyers all have specialties. TONS in the phone book for accident victoms. How do you know what to look for to cover this?

 

[john123456]

OH MY GOD! I thought I was done with this. At a town meeting, many town people showed up and our business owner swore up and down she didn't know, didn't mean to disturb, it won't happen again, they have two more nights scheduled but it would be turned down.... And in fact it was. I thought we were done.

NO! Friday, Oct 27, a LIVE BAND, WITH amplifiers started up around 7pm!
I am not kidding here, I have a very heavy indian blanket over my living room window and IT WAS VIBRATING! My son had a very early day planned for Saturday. We all had to be up at FIVE AM. NO way he could sleep with this boom boom boom noise!

My husband came home and was as irritated as we both were already. He calls our local cop who I already know can't do anything. There is no sound ordinance to enforce. Besides he was busy on real emergancies.
Next I called our town board super on my cell from the yard so he could hear exactly why I was calling. He explained there really isn't anything our little board can do as this is a state issued licence.

By nine pm, I was FURIOUS. (to put it nicely.) I called the bar myself. Got the SAME OWNER who swore up and down she didn't know last time. Well she is THERE now so that excuse wouldn't fly. First she claimed it was some fundraising charity. Swell! So WHY does the WHOLE TOWN HAVE TO HEAR IT??? You can't have a fundraiser within your business?
Then I got the "Im running a business here." (Now is it a charity or for profit?)
But again, I said, why does YOUR business have to shake MY WALLS?
And then, this conversation got really wierd. We actually just bought our house from them. And she pointed out how "you wouldn't have your house if not for us." Now what in blazes does that have to do with your bar blasting noise for the whole town to put up with for hours on end??????????
This bar has been here for generations and only THIS YEAR did she decide to start this stadium entertainment crap OUTSIDE! They never needed that before.

Then she threatened to call an inspector on me because I have clutter around my place. (yes I am a bit of a slob but that is not illegal!)
At this point I was seeing red! GLASS HOUSES ya know? Last time I ate in her dive of a place there were mice running around! We have not gone in there since. My neighbors kid was given a drink with a CHEWED straw in it!!!!! There is greese on every wall, stains on the cealing from roof leaks. And SHE is going to call an inspector on ME?????
Again what the !!!! does that have to do with NOISE???????

agh!

So.... This is where I need help.
Obviously her word is worthless. And if the town board really has it's hands tied, it's time to take this to the next level or it will only go on over and over.

1. How can I find out the EXACT wording on a liquor/entertainment licence. Specifically in Van Buren county Michigan. Keeler township!
I betcha somewhere in there it is understood to be INSIDE! Not with out door stadium grade speakers in a tiny quite rural town. That might end it there if I can find it in writing right in her licence.

2. I need to find out if there is any way our town board can enact a need to get a permit for "outdoor amplified music." This would still allow them to have outdoor "entertainment." Like acustic? Or a singer? Just NO SPEAKERS that cover the whole damn town and shake my walls!!!!! Do that INSIDE. Music from inside that place, no matter how loud does not shake the walls. And unlike a sound ordinance which they explained is hard to enact, and impossible to enforce, this would directly target the only noise in this town.
THIS DAMN BAR! And it would give the board, and residents, a say in how often, how long, how loud etc. Seems that no one has any say right now.

3. If neither of these can be found off the internet, (and so far I'm striking out here,) I'd need a lawyer to help dig up information or possibly file suit. But.... what catagory do you look for this? Lawyers all have specialties. TONS in the phone book for accident victoms. How do you know what to look for to cover this?

Poster:

You were already given good legal advice. Scroll back and reread the response posted by badapple40.

 

[artmaker]

Ok, the advice is...

Why don't you sue them for creating a nuisance and move for an injunction prohibiting them from using the loud speakers in the evening in the future?

Great. That means I HIRE a lawyer. If I could afford that I wouldn't be posting on FREEADVICE. And... what exact field do I look under if it does come down to a court case? Lawyers are all listed by what they do. What does this whole mess fall under?

I'm sure SOME legal stuff I can find myself. Hoped this board would help.
Again,
1. How can I get a copy of Michigan Liquor/entertainment licence. I bet there is something in there that suggests entertainment is INDOORS.

2. Can our town board require a permit since this effects the town?

Answers to either of these may put a stop to this without court. And would certainly help IN court if it ends up there.

 

[seniorjudge]

Q: How can I get a copy of Michigan Liquor/entertainment licence. I bet there is something in there that suggests entertainment is INDOORS.

A: The license is available under your state's sunshine law from the bureaucracy who issued it.


Q: Can our town board require a permit since this effects the town?

A: The general rule is that this is allowable. However, I am not familiar with the laws in your jurisdiction so ask the bureaucrats your question when you ask to see the license. Don't ask for legal advice; just ask for the statute governing your question. I doubt that they will give it to you; but it will not hurt to ask.