Parental Alienation and Misguided Action of Judge - Georgia

[Zigner]

I don't believe this has been mentioned before, but it might be helpful now.
If your daughter has concerns about her legal matters, then it ought to be she who is on here asking questions. You, quite frankly, are a legal stranger (meaning you have no legal standing) in this case. There really is nothing that you can do except to be supportive of your daughter and grandchild.

 

[stealth2]

Just as an fyi, neither parent is required to include the other parent or their family on their time.

 

[ShockedNana]

Just an observation: the term "parental alienation" can be triggering. Yes...as I navigate thru this first time experience...nightmare....I see that term is not used/ preferred, but someone told me what I was describing was PA. I ran across the term "mother child sabbotage" which is a much better description of what has been going on...actually dead on. My daughter has been telling me for some time before this was going on and I didnt think much of it but it has been going on for years and has done damage.
When confronted, the father has even told her that he didnt tell my grandaughter to lie about things, just not to tell you. He has told her that her mother will "keep her away from him"
The year long living there- then kicked out -then back again relationship with the new step-mother was kept secret....my grandaughter was told to not to tell my daughter. Someone in his family that my daughter is close to told her. My granddaughter told me that this person "betrayed her own family" by telling her mom that then girlfriend lived there. She was not told about the expected new sibling, but found out through another source a month before the baby was born.
The father has told other people that my daughter is crazy, etc....people she knows and some she doesn't.
You or Mom complaining about Dad, etc., can be potentially seen as spiteful. In describing the situation, I may not have been clear...my daughter has been VERY careful not to talk badly about her ex in the presence of my granddaughter...communicating with him about attending events, including him in our family activities....etc.
During the whole time, my daughter, nor myself have not spoken badly about him to or around my granddaughter... Even when my grandaughter starts repeating rhetoric he says about her mom, I have just told her to let the grown-ups handle the grown-up stuff and that they both love her and wants what is best. Just over the last year or so, my granddaughter has started doing this and it has steadily escalated....my daughter has talked to her about lying to her because that can't be allowed and that she should not keep secrets for either of them...one big reason for the counseling.

 

[stealth2]

the term "parental alienation" can be triggering.

The reason that this term (especially with the addition of "syndrome") is often triggering is due to the person who coined the term (Richard A. Gardner). Gardner (initially) used the term almost exclusively against mothers, claiming that they often used accusations of molestation of the child against the father, true or not. He insisted that such accusations were invariably false and advocated for the child to be placed in the father's custody.

Although Wikipedia isn't the best source, it does provide a good starting point, with citations for further research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_alienation_syndrome

Gardner's research was widely discredited, and he was a very controversial figure, based both on his views regarding pedophelia and mandatory child abuse reporting.

So, yeah, parental alienation should be used with great caution. (btw - I don't really see his not wanting your granddaughter to share the news of his romantic woes or the upcoming infant with Mom/family as a huge issue.)

 

[ShockedNana]

It's always been my understanding that evidence that was available but not used at trial cannot be used to have a judgment overturned or a new trial granted. Am I mistaken?
As I learn more, I am thinking that all information "evidence" to support the claim that granting him full custody is not in the best interest of the child was basically information prior to a year ago when he legitimized her and filed for full custody and the court apparently does not recognize any of it before legitimization.


Summary....without the court involment, they lived together, raising her and even buying a house together for 8 years, shared physical custody 50/50 until she was in middle school, then mutually decided, it would be best that she be with my daughter Mon-Fri for school consistancy...he had her alternate weekends and off school times as much as he wanted. My daughter has a 9-5 in town job, with a only few travel obligations a year, whereas his hours are long and swap night and day. My daughter arranged and paid for after school care, camps, carried health insurance on her as he has none with his job, handled ALL Dr appts, dental/orthodontic visits, school events, teacher conferences, homework...etc.
Myself, my husband and my daughter have tried to convince him to legitimze my ganddaughter for 12 years...his name is on birth certificate, but they never married. The concern being that if something were to happen to my daughter....her only legal guardian...it would not be absolutely clear in the sometimes messed up legal system that he would get custody w/o legitimization and that her status as his heir would not be established.
After separation, he paid his half of childcare, medical expenses for her for a while then stopped. My daughter tried for over a year to work with him outside court on financial obligations and/or inside court on custody, but finally filed for support. The amount the court ruled on was substantially more than
either of them thought, but still she settled for less. Only then did he file for legitimization and custody...at the urging of his new wife with the new baby.
First of all, you guys lost, and they expect losers to be sore. If you jump right back in with another lawyer in the same court system, I'd rate your chances in the neighborhood of VERY POOR to not at all. What is meant by filing in another venue? During the course of the year long
I dont think sore losers is accurate...more in shock that after the history described here, the judge went beyond the summer ruling 50/50 physical/legal custody, with father paying only his half of insurance/ medical/ dental to father having full physical custody, joint legal with him having final say on everything and her paying him. Different venue meaning refile in different court system vs appeal.

 

[Zigner]

So, yeah, parental alienation should be used with great caution. (btw - I don't really see his not wanting your granddaughter to share the news of his romantic woes or the upcoming infant with Mom/family as a huge issue.)

While I would agree that the topic is not necessarily a major issue, a parent should not be asking the child to keep secrets from the other parent.

 

[ShockedNana]

I don't believe this has been mentioned before, but it might be helpful now.
If your daughter has concerns about her legal matters, then it ought to be she who is on here asking questions. You, quite frankly, are a legal stranger (meaning you have no legal standing) in this case. There really is nothing that you can do except to be supportive of your daughter and grandchild.

 

[Just Blue]

Just an observation: the term "parental alienation" can be triggering. Yes...as I navigate thru this first time experience...nightmare....I see that term is not used/ preferred, but someone told me what I was describing was PA. I ran across the term "mother child sabbotage" which is a much better description of what has been going on...actually dead on. My daughter has been telling me for some time before this was going on and I didnt think much of it but it has been going on for years and has done damage.
When confronted, the father has even told her that he didnt tell my grandaughter to lie about things, just not to tell you. He has told her that her mother will "keep her away from him"
The year long living there- then kicked out -then back again relationship with the new step-mother was kept secret....my grandaughter was told to not to tell my daughter. Someone in his family that my daughter is close to told her. My granddaughter told me that this person "betrayed her own family" by telling her mom that then girlfriend lived there. She was not told about the expected new sibling, but found out through another source a month before the baby was born.
The father has told other people that my daughter is crazy, etc....people she knows and some she doesn't.
You or Mom complaining about Dad, etc., can be potentially seen as spiteful. In describing the situation, I may not have been clear...my daughter has been VERY careful not to talk badly about her ex in the presence of my granddaughter...communicating with him about attending events, including him in our family activities....etc.
During the whole time, my daughter, nor myself have not spoken badly about him to or around my granddaughter... Even when my grandaughter starts repeating rhetoric he says about her mom, I have just told her to let the grown-ups handle the grown-up stuff and that they both love her and wants what is best. Just over the last year or so, my granddaughter has started doing this and it has steadily escalated....my daughter has talked to her about lying to her because that can't be allowed and that she should not keep secrets for either of them...one big reason for the counseling.

ShockedNana, Is your daughter aware that you are posting about HER legal matters on the internet?

 

[ShockedNana]

She is also exploring options and I will suggest this site...I am just trying to better understand the legalities involved and support her as she is somewhat reeling from all of this. This is my daughter and my grandaughter...we are not estanged....we live near each other and our ties have been very close. I have no ability/or desire to make legal decisons, but whatever affects the well being of my child and grandchild is my business....obviously you are not a parent.

 

[ShockedNana]

Your daughter could not get a new trial unless it could be proven to the satisfaction of a judge that her lawyer committed basically malpractice, to the satisfaction of an appeals court that the judge abused his/her discretion, or in the future, if there is a change of circumstances that make it appropriate to revisit custody.

You should google "best interest of the child factors, Georgia" and review the factors that a judge must use in deciding custody. Until 10 years or so ago a child's wishes, once they were your grandchild's age were absolutely controlling in GA. That is no longer the case, but the child's wishes still carry significant weight.

If you review the factors objectively, I think that you will see that mom and dad stand about equal in many of them, and that some of the things you consider to matter, don't matter at all. Others are definitely in dad's favor. (child's wishes, a sibling in dad's home etc).

I am sure that it is painful for both your daughter and yourself to have this change happen, but it is likely a change that you have no real choice but to accept.

"best interest of the child factors, Georgia" Thank You this reference was very helpful. In reading it, I am even more convinced that provision of these things has been met equally by both parents...actually more so by my daughter as continuity...our family, close friends, etc. have been the center of her life since she was born...her dad has been very much included in this. Her time with her father since they split up 5 years ago has mostly just been with him and paternal grandparents, mutual friends. The addition of stepmother and her daughter and new baby has just been within the last year or so. I understand the draw of siblings to my granddaughter and that she may have feelings about sharing him. At my daughter's initiation, she does see a counselor ... my daughter requested that the judge mandate it in court order. My granddaughter likes her time with counselor, but she will not talk about her request to live with her dad more. From the beginning of the custody case a year ago, his lawyer has requested FULL custody for him. At every hearing (about 6), she has FIRMLY pushed for bringing my granddaughter in to confirm her desire to live full time with him. The judge did move step wise to 50/50 during summer, but then at the final hearing, talked to my grand-daughter and awarded full custody. No ad litem was appointed.






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[Zigner]

She is also exploring options and I will suggest this site...I am just trying to better understand the legalities involved and support her as she is somewhat reeling from all of this. This is my daughter and my grandaughter...we are not estanged....we live near each other and our ties have been very close. I have no ability/or desire to make legal decisons, ...

Up to there, I'm with you. Your response is very understandable and reasonable.

but whatever affects the well being of my child and grandchild is my business....

No, not legally speaking.

...obviously you are not a parent.

Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about with that statement. Many (most?) responders ARE parents, and many are grandparents. Myself, many times over.

 

[ShockedNana]

Just an observation: the term "parental alienation" can be triggering. As in, using it can backlash against the party alleging it very easily.

However, given concerns about the child's behavior, it may be in the "best interests of the child" to have some form of therapy/counselling. You or Mom complaining about Dad, etc., can be potentially seen as spiteful. However, and unbiased outside party (that's also a mandated reporter) has more credibility. And anyway, even if there's nothing useful for court, at least the kid will have had some emotional support. Clearly the kid, like many tweens, is working through something emotionally.

Just an observation: the term "parental alienation" can be triggering. Yes...as I navigate thru this first time experience...nightmare....I see that term is not used/ preferred, but someone told me what I was describing was PA. I ran across the term "mother child sabbotage" which is a much better description of what has been going on...actually dead on. My daughter has been telling me for some time before this was going on and I didnt think much of it but it has been going on for years and has done damage.
When confronted, the father has even told her that he didnt tell my grandaughter to lie about things, just not to tell you. He has told her that her mother will "keep her away from him"
The year long living there- then kicked out -then back again relationship with the new step-mother was kept secret....my grandaughter was told to not to tell my daughter. Someone in his family that my daughter is close to told her. My granddaughter told me that this person "betrayed her own family" by telling her mom that then girlfriend lived there. She was not told about the expected new sibling, but found out through another source a month before the baby was born.
The father has told other people that my daughter is crazy, etc....people she knows and some she doesn't.
You or Mom complaining about Dad, etc., can be potentially seen as spiteful. In describing the situation, I may not have been clear...my daughter has been VERY careful not to talk badly about her ex in the presence of my granddaughter...communicating with him about attending events, including him in our family activities....etc.
During the whole time, my daughter, nor myself have not spoken badly about him to or around my granddaughter... Even when my grandaughter starts repeating rhetoric he says about her mom, I have just told her to let the grown-ups handle the grown-up stuff and that they both love her and wants what is best. Just over the last year or so, my granddaughter has started doing this and it has steadily escalated....my daughter has talked to her about lying to her because that can't be allowed and that she should not keep secrets for either of them...one big reason for the counseling.

 

[ShockedNana]

Up to there, I'm with you. Your response is very understandable and reasonable.


No, not legally speaking.


Obviously you have no clue what you are talking about with that statement. Many (most?) responders ARE parents, and many are grandparents. Myself, many times over.

Sorry maybe I overstepped and jumped to conclusion with "obviously you are not a parent." This IS a legal site and yes I can't influence the legal process, but understanding how this has played out legally and where it may go helps me support my daughter/grandaughter...and the input on this site HAS helped me navigate my role as parent/ grandparent. Perhaps what would best help would be more of a counseling resource to deal with the fallout of a really bad legal decision.

 

[ShockedNana]

Your daughter could not get a new trial unless it could be proven to the satisfaction of a judge that her lawyer committed basically malpractice, to the satisfaction of an appeals court that the judge abused his/her discretion, or in the future, if there is a change of circumstances that make it appropriate to revisit custody.

You should google "best interest of the child factors, Georgia" and review the factors that a judge must use in deciding custody. Until 10 years or so ago a child's wishes, once they were your grandchild's age were absolutely controlling in GA. That is no longer the case, but the child's wishes still carry significant weight.

If you review the factors objectively, I think that you will see that mom and dad stand about equal in many of them, and that some of the things you consider to matter, don't matter at all. Others are definitely in dad's favor. (child's wishes, a sibling in dad's home etc).

I am sure that it is painful for both your daughter and yourself to have this change happen, but it is likely a change that you have no real choice but to accept.

"best interest of the child factors, Georgia" Thank You this reference was very helpful. In reading it, I am even more convinced that provision of these things has been met equally by both parents...actually more so by my daughter as continuity...our family, close friends, etc. have been the center of her life since she was born...her dad has been very much included in this. Her time with her father since they split up 5 years ago has mostly just been with him and paternal grandparents, mutual friends. The addition of stepmother and her daughter and new baby has just been within the last year or so. I understand the draw of siblings to my granddaughter and that she may have feelings about sharing him. At my daughter's initiation, she does see a counselor ... my daughter requested that the judge mandate it in court order. My granddaughter likes her time with counselor, but she will not talk about her request to live with her dad more. From the beginning of the custody case a year ago, his lawyer has requested FULL custody for him. At every hearing (about 6), she has FIRMLY pushed for bringing my granddaughter in to confirm her desire to live full time with him. The judge did move step wise to 50/50 during summer, but then at the final hearing, talked to my grand-daughter and awarded full custody. No ad litem was appointed.

 

[ShockedNana]

First of all, you guys lost, and they expect losers to be sore. If you jump right back in with another lawyer in the same court system, I'd rate your chances in the neighborhood of VERY POOR to not at all. What is meant by filing in another venue?

If I were a 12 or 13 year old girl whose daddy had a horse for me at his house, I'd be there. Maybe you guys got played, in that he did get total custody, which turned the financial tables big, but I doubt very seriously if the child, who's about to have a baby sibling and has a horse there is going to agree without a lot of drama to go home to momma and grandma for primary custory or even back to 50/50. And since this state has a heavy history of listening to the child's wishes, I suspect that is still the way the judge (any judge) is going to lean in this one.

Please, while waiting for the situation to cool off just a little, get your granddaughter into counseling while she is with her mom. That is an additonal wall of protection against any sort of mistreatment or psychological programming that her father might be doing. Please, please, remove the term "parental alienation" from your vocabulary totally and completely, as having it come up in court would be very negative for your side. Since the judge did not see any manipulation going on (that a guardian ad litem would've seen through, you assume) it may not be real obvious to others.

I think you are dead on correct with all of this. She is a very bright, usually sweet 13 year old who is trying to keep her status in a situation that was thrust upon her at a very delicate age and keep her horse...the judge even said she wants to be with her horse more. Only verifiable facts since onset of court are applicable...everything else is hearsay. She has been seeing a good child counselor that she likes, but I suspect that may end soon as he has total decision making ability. I dont know if the term PA was used in court....my daughter has used it and others have used it to describe the situation. Her lawyer suggested to not have others as support in the courtroom so as to not look like "grandstanding" so I've never been or interacted with her lawyer. I do feel like a the cool off period may help...I think now that everyone doesnt't have to be on their best behavior, things may change, and the rose colored glasses will come off.