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Student's rights

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august

Junior Member
I guess you would know that McDonalds is hiring being the manager and all....
I can see why you are so bitter...You sound like your afraid of the truth...My son doesn't understand the meaning of a good education when the there is no longer such a thing.. But I think your comment of "let him quit school " is a little juvenile...I can understand the safety of the school and the students but everyone shouldn't be convicted of a crime based on the way they look or their race,religion,or gender..
 


MoneyShot

Member
august said:
I guess you would know that McDonalds is hiring being the manager and all....
I can see why you are so bitter...You sound like your afraid of the truth...My son doesn't understand the meaning of a good education when the there is no longer such a thing.. But I think your comment of "let him quit school " is a little juvenile...I can understand the safety of the school and the students but everyone shouldn't be convicted of a crime based on the way they look or their race,religion,or gender..
And the truth is.... what? That your son doesn't want to follow society's norms yet wants all the benefits of being a normal person? I think allowing him to quit school and try to function in the real world looking like an extra from some horror movie will give him a good lesson in real world functioning. I think there's a *lot* of things your son doesn't understand and I'd first lay the blame for that at your feet as his parent. Maybe he's got his first lesson in the consequences of presenting himself, by his appearance, to the world as a walking freak show. If his manner of expressing himself through bizarre dress is disruptive to others, don't those same other students have a right to the best education that school can provide without your son drawing attention away from the educational process by his appearance. Is he maybe looking for attention from others because he wasn't breast fed or otherwise get enough attention or approval at home? Does he every cry out "Mommy and Daddy don't love me so please look at me!!" Why don't you look into what's making him feel the need to express his nihilism as he does? Does Daddy wear makeup as well? Spend some quality time and get to know him a little better. Take him to work with you. Working the Slurpee machine and restocking the beef jerky with you might inspire him to pay more attention to his studies now and work towards a brighter future than he now imagines as he sees you put on your smock and paper hat as you head off to work each morning. In any case, he'll have plenty of time to 'express himself' when he finishes school (hopefully) and has to function amongst other adults. The opportunity to develop his coping skills with be limitless!

From the situation you describe, he hasn't been convicted of anything yet. It sounds like some concerned school officials were trying to intervene when they saw signs that his (or other students') well being might be at risk. Had officials at Columbine been so attentive and recognized what we now view as warning signs, then perhaps we wouldn't now be recalling what happened with such horror and regret.

Repeat after me..."Yo quiero Taco Bell"!
 
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ceara19

Senior Member
CdwJava said:
If they thought he was drunk or high they could have called the police and let THEM do the tests. The DRE protocol includes BP, pulse and temperature among other tests.

- Carl
Yes, they COULD have done this, but they DIDN'T. From a strictly LEGAL point of view, with ALL personal feelings aside, the school DID indeed violate the rights of this student.
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
ceara19 said:
Yes, they COULD have done this, but they DIDN'T. From a strictly LEGAL point of view, with ALL personal feelings aside, the school DID indeed violate the rights of this student.
Possibly.

There are issues of en loco parentis to be considered, and the school taking what they believed might have been appropriate medical action. Without knowing all the facts, it isn't possible to determine unequivocally that his "rights" were violated. A law might not have been adhered to, but this is not the same as violating his rights.

On the face of it, I would say that the blood pressure thing is debatable, the search of the backpack is good (he gave consent), any violation for the knife is good because of the consent to search the backpack, and the listening to phone messages without consent of the kid is likely bad (but TX is not in the same Circuit as CA so the realities for certain Constitutional issues may not be the same as here).

- Carl
 
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august

Junior Member
See that's the problem. Who gave society the right to decide the meaning of what the NORM is? What is the real world anyway? A world where people like you go around judging every person based on the way they look if it's not to your liking? I don't care what your definition of the norm is! There is no such thing as the Norm. Do you judge people who smoke? Do your paren't drink? or is your father the Minister of your church? Are you a fat person.. Fat people aren't excepted in society either. Gay people, pregnant teenagers, are these the Norm?? Should everyone be put down based on an opinion by individuals such as yourself? Someone who never received a hug from his mother.. Your dad probably didn't play with you when you were young, Or DID He!!! I think that everyone should be able to live there life without judgment..My son has the right to express himself by wearing any color that he want's to. Your paren't didn't teach you to stand up for yourself but they taught you that if you judge other people that you will be wealthy and happy. I don't care what other people look like. I am not here to judge anyone, but I will defend my son's reputation..My son doesn't need to change, the people who live and judge others need to change...
 

CdwJava

Senior Member
Like it or not, there ARE norms in society. If he goes for a job interview at a music store, perhaps the Goth look will work for him. If he goes for an interview at a stock brokerage or law firm, he'll be lucky if he is inside long enough to put his resume on the desk.

He can remain a rebel, or he can learn that there is a time and a place for everything.

I know a number of kids who dress Goth as it sounds like your son does. Many are okay kids. Some have some VERY serious problems. But they all have trouble landing decent jobs without some comforming. The ones I know that are doing well have learned when to dress to their heart's desire, and when to dress to their employer's (and society's) desire.

As for his recent issues, you have a few choices: Pay for an attorney and try to sue someone (and I hope you have a lot of money for that); let it go; or, try to express your displeasure the appropriate channels through the school and the district.

- Carl
 

AngelMyst

Junior Member
*a little late posting this but I had to say it*

MoneyShot said:
And the truth is.... what? That your son doesn't want to follow society's norms yet wants all the benefits of being a normal person? I think allowing him to quit school and try to function in the real world looking like an extra from some horror movie will give him a good lesson in real world functioning. I think there's a *lot* of things your son doesn't understand and I'd first lay the blame for that at your feet as his parent. But in any case, Maybe he's got his first lesson in the consequences of presenting himself, by his appearance, to the world as a walking freak show. If his manner of expressing himself through bizarre dress is disruptive to others, don't those same other students have a right to the best education that school can provide without your son drawing attention away from the educational process by his appearance.
Actually MoneyShot, the attitude you are portraying by your statements, which unfortunately seems to be a common viewpoint, is more of a threat to the wellbeing of these students than August's son following a different path. Stereotyping a person by the way they look and dress, is really no different than stereotyping by race or culture, the only difference is doing so based on race or culture is protected under the law. The end result is the same, the attitude encourages people to discriminate against others, mistrust others and mistreat others because they are different. Profiling the shooters after Columbine, they found the two had been considered outcasts or rejects, and had been subjected to anti-gay insults. Their journals experessed feelings of rejection and isolation..and anger and hatred. Officials acknowledged that this could have been a contributing factor, and implemented bullying policies.

As a society we know just how profoundly a child can be damaged by abuse, leading not only to depression, anxiety, suicide and withdrawal, but also anger, and aggressive or violent behavior. This is considered so serious a problem, that to protect the wellbeing of the child, they can be permanently separated from abusive parents. Despite this knowledge, society, so intolerant of differences felt what was learned by this, is that non-conformance especially leaning towards goth appearance, is not normal, is an indicator of deeper emotional issues, and something to be watched and wary of, possibly even feared. While the more logical, educated and constructive conclusion is barely even acknowledged. The damaging factor in child abuse is the abuse, while we would be horrified and outraged to find a child was exposed to 7 or 8 hours a day 5 days a week to constant rejection, insults, belitting, and bullying at home by their parents. Change home to school, and the parents to classmates, and it's a whole new ballgame....although the level, type and duration of abuse remain the same, it's not an issue, let alone life damaging abuse, instead it's the "normal" ones...the accepted ones, the majority, and someone who isn't. Ironically the victim now is held responsible not because they are bad, but because they are unique and individual, "different" the abusers on the other hand, are considered innocent victims, it's not their fault they are abusing him...it's his fault for being different. No matter how you try to pretty it up to protect the social norm, abuse is still abuse and can literally destroy someone's life. So long as people continue ignore the part intolerance and that so called social norm can play in things like this, chosing instead to alienate and abuse people who are different, believing that if we can eliminate individuality we can eliminate the problem....we will NEVER eliminate the problem.

My daughter dresses "goth" with the very wide legged pants, black t-shirts and even sometimes black nail polish and eyeliner, her personality is so opposite of the stereotype I can't help but laugh sometimes. Why does she not follow the "social norms"? Originally it was based on comfort, the "social norm" for young girls is largely based on their attempt to mimic the images set forth by the current pop star of the day. My daughter is modest about her body, and was not comfortable in short tight tshirts, thongs and low rise pants. I personally don't find this a problem at all but based on the stereotype society might.

Over time, this has evolved into a statement oposing the "social norm" as she see's it, and not only am I not worried about this, I'm very proud of her for it. Her opposition is founded in belief that every single person on earth is worthy of respect, and as such should be judged solely on their merits as individuals, not on money, social status, race, religion, country, or even appearance. She is bothered by what she see's in those that follow the so-called "social norm", the intolerence that she seen those who are "different" subjected to, and the pain and damage she knows it can cause. She makes her statement not only in appearance, but also example believing that each life she touches in a positive way makes the world just a little bit better.

Many of our greatest discoveries, advances and innovations came from people who did not fit the social norm, people who instead of wasting thier energy trying to meet the approval of society held firmly to their own dreams, ideas and beliefs. Different does not make one worthless, or bad. Without at least some people thinking outside the box our future is dead in the water. On the other hand, expecting people to all act, look, and believe the same, and intolerance to those who don't, actually promotes violence and pain.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
What does all of this have to do with your situation? The kid showed signs of a problem, the school dealt with it. All is probably ok with the exception of the phone.

Now you want to talk about societal norms.

The thing is your son is intentionally drawing attention to himself. Of course he should expect increased scrutiny. Not illegal intrusions but scrutiny.

Of course everybody has a right to express themselvess but I will tell you when a Hell's Angel comes walking down the street, I will look at him differently than the average citizen,
but he does get my attention but not my respect.
I can stand in the middle of town and wear a purple dress if I want but I realize I will garner added attention from it. That's part of being different. You want to stand out. You can't decide you only want feelings of acceptance. You will have to accept the negative attention as well.

Your ideal of living life without judgement is only a dream. Go splash some cold water on your face and wake up. There is a world out there and people are going to judge you. Actually we should be judged to some extent. If we weren't, anarchy would reign. We judge what is acceptable behaviour every day and rightfully so.

And yes your son needs to change. He needs to stop carrying a knife to school. He needs to correct whatever caused his BP to be high. He needs to realize the world has more people in it than him and every one of them have the same rights as your son. The problem I see is he has a poor role model so his chances of changing are slim. You are concerned more about how your son got caught doing something wrong than you are with the fact he did so something wrong. Improve yourself so you can help your son improve as well.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
august said:
See that's the problem. Who gave society the right to decide the meaning of what the NORM is?
Majority rules. Sorry, but I don't like people who have multiple bodily parts pierced fingering them, commenting how the piercings were infected, and the touching my food. Get the hell away from what I'm feeding my family! If someone can't understand that's inappropriate - they have no place working in a food store. "Society" has every right to have an issue with it.

And ya know what? I don't have to like it when kids dress like punks. Nor do I have to hire them. Dose of reality for you and your kid.
 

AngelMyst

Junior Member
stealth2 said:
Majority rules. Sorry, but I don't like people who have multiple bodily parts pierced fingering them, commenting how the piercings were infected, and the touching my food. Get the hell away from what I'm feeding my family! If someone can't understand that's inappropriate - they have no place working in a food store. "Society" has every right to have an issue with it.

And ya know what? I don't have to like it when kids dress like punks. Nor do I have to hire them. Dose of reality for you and your kid.
Regarding the piercings, that seems more like an issue with hygene. Unless of course it's the multiple body parts you have a problem with. Personally I would be offended if anyone were doing that no matter where the piercings were. It is socially acceptable for girls to have multiple ear piercings and navel piercings, surely you would find it just as offensive if someone who fit that social norm were doing the same thing?

The punk thing, well of course there are areas where such dress would not be appropriate, but nor would the current trends for those that are within what is considered the social norm. Out in public and on the streets compairing what is currently considered punk with what is considered the social norm I myself often find the social norm more offensive. Current punk style consists of over sized loose fitting black pants, over sized loose t-shirts, then maybe some spiked jewelry or chains. Other than the jewelry, you have a kid in black, forarms, head and face exposed. Where your social norm at least for girls, consists of very low rise tight pants that just barely raise above the pubic area, a bare belly area accented by a navel ring to draw attention to what they have exposed, and a short tight cropped shirt, additionally a thong is a very important part of the ensemble, it's very important that there is no indication that underwear are being worn. (at least now that is all you see of the thong, a couple years ago it was the latest fashion trend to make absolutely sure that thong showed above the top of the pants in back so everyone knew what they had on)

I am so glad my daughter dresses in the former manner, rather than the social norm! I feel good knowing that when she is standing there talking to a member of the opposite sex, they actually are interested in who she is and what she has to say....instead of just nodding in response, deaf to the conversation, distracted by the "here I am, aren't I hot come and get me" message that the "social norm" offers.
 
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"Do you judge people who smoke?"
Yes, Their breath stinks, their clothes stink, their cars stink, their homes stink. If they are lucky they will die quicky of a heart attack rather than a long painful death form cancer.

"Do your paren't drink?"
What? I don't drink, ergo, I will never hurt anyone while DUI.

"Fat people aren't excepted in society either"
That's a tough one, we all have to eat. And food tastes sooooo good. But at some point you have to control youself.

"Gay people"
Not "normal", but I don't blame them, I think they are just wired that way.

"pregnant teenagers"
Dumb move.

"Should everyone be put down based on an opinion by individuals such as yourself?"
Everyone is entitled to my opinion ;)

"I think that everyone should be able to live there life without judgment."
Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. :eek:

"My son doesn't need to change, the people who live and judge others need to change"
Yeah, that's going to happen! :rolleyes: Until it does, "Do you want fries with that?"

Goth sucks! Now the hippy look, that was groovey, flashy tie-dyed shirt, bell bottom pants, and long hair; those were the days:D

The above are my judgements, you have the right to be wrong :cool:
 
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AngelMyst

Junior Member
Rich Uncle said:
[IGoth sucks! Now the hippy look, that was groovey, flashy tie-dyed shirt, bell bottom pants, and long hair; those were the days:D

The above are my judgements, you have the right to be wrong :cool:

LOL! I can live and deal with the Goth....ohh but yeah that hippy look, I so loved my bell bottoms, and floppy leather hat! Sadly would probably look quite silly in them now!
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
AngelMyst said:
Regarding the piercings, that seems more like an issue with hygene. Unless of course it's the multiple body parts you have a problem with. Personally I would be offended if anyone were doing that no matter where the piercings were. It is socially acceptable for girls to have multiple ear piercings and navel piercings, surely you would find it just as offensive if someone who fit that social norm were doing the same thing?

The punk thing, well of course there are areas where such dress would not be appropriate, but nor would the current trends for those that are within what is considered the social norm. Out in public and on the streets compairing what is currently considered punk with what is considered the social norm I myself often find the social norm more offensive. Current punk style consists of over sized loose fitting black pants, over sized loose t-shirts, then maybe some spiked jewelry or chains. Other than the jewelry, you have a kid in black, forarms, head and face exposed. Where your social norm at least for girls, consists of very low rise tight pants that just barely raise above the pubic area, a bare belly area accented by a navel ring to draw attention to what they have exposed, and a short tight cropped shirt, additionally a thong is a very important part of the ensemble, it's very important that there is no indication that underwear are being worn. (at least now that is all you see of the thong, a couple years ago it was the latest fashion trend to make absolutely sure that thong showed above the top of the pants in back so everyone knew what they had on)

I am so glad my daughter dresses in the former manner, rather than the social norm! I feel good knowing that when she is standing there talking to a member of the opposite sex, they actually are interested in who she is and what she has to say....instead of just nodding in response, deaf to the conversation, distracted by the "here I am, aren't I hot come and get me" message that the "social norm" offers.

Most of those are banned by school dress codes, too. The fact is, if you don't want to attract negative attention, you don't (as an adolescent male) wear eyeliner and nail polish. Both you and your son are lying to yourselves by pretending he doesn't want to attract attention to himself.
 

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