Student's rights

[AngelMyst]

*disclaimer*
I am only addressing the subject of targeting a student and subjecting them to undue scrutiny, investigation and suspicion solely on the basis of a differing personal style.

The fact is, if you don't want to attract negative attention, you don't (as an adolescent male) wear eyeliner and nail polish.

That in and of itself, (looking different that the "social norm") is not sufficient grounds for the school itself to discriminate against a student, harrass or suspend them. EVEN if they decide to write it into their dress code. Our public school system is not a private business or organization, it is a public institution and as such a representitive of the "state" not just the "social norm".

Take a look at what is refered to as "The Tinker Standard" in which the US Supreme Court stated:

"The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is [393 U.S. 503, 509] the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint"

A similar type of issue has been raised in more recent times pertaining to school dress policies banning pentacles in school. A pentacle is used as a symbol in the Wiccan and Pagan belief systems. In a society that predominantly follows a Christian belief system, not only does this symbol deviate from the social norm, it is often viewed as directly opposed to the values of the Christian belief system, and has been specificially banned in school dress policies. As a result students wearing this symbol in expression of their religious beliefs, have found themselves subject to disciplinary action by school systems, and even suspended. The US supreme court, has ruled repeatedly when this is brought before them that this is in direct violation of the students rights to religious expression forcing those schools to modify their dress codes. What I find interesting about this is, despite how many times this has happened, schools that have not ended up in court over this are to this day writing it into the dress codes, and actively pointing out this policy to parents when targeting and suspending students wearing them, apparently in hopes it won't be questioned. This happened to one of my daughters friends recently, after being suspended for it twice, frustrated he presented information regarding the Supreme Court determinations to his dean who responded by saying "You've really done you're research here" and excused him to return to class. He has been left alone since, but the policy itself is currently still in the books.

Sure, if you dress differently, or follow a different belief system or do anything that does not follow the majority, you WILL draw attention to yourself and you must be willing to accept that. People are scared of things that are unfamiliar, or different and would rather not have to deal with it, and they have a right to their opinions and fear. What they don't have a right to do, is violate another persons rights to keep from dealing with what they fear and find uncomfortable.

 

[CdwJava]

However, in this case it appears that the school believed that the child might be high, drunk, or suffering from some other infirmity. This would have nothing really to do with the manner of dress ... though it would explain why someone might be looking at him.

While the appropriate response may not have been to conduct an evaluation in the office, it would certainly have saved the family a lot of consternation and potential medical bills had the school called an ambulance or even the police.

- Carl

 

[CdwJava]

MystWhat they don't have a right to do, is violate another persons rights to keep from dealing with what they fear and find uncomfortable.

And the person with the deviating manner of dress or beliefs also has to understand that their actions and beliefs ARE outside the social norm and they WILL be subject to scrutiny and even ridicule because of that. While they may have a right to be free of government interference in most forms of expression, they do NOT have a right to be free of the reaction and comments of others who disagree..

- Carl

 

[AngelMyst]

However, in this case it appears that the school believed that the child might be high, drunk, or suffering from some other infirmity. This would have nothing really to do with the manner of dress ... though it would explain why someone might be looking at him.

While the appropriate response may not have been to conduct an evaluation in the office, it would certainly have saved the family a lot of consternation and potential medical bills had the school called an ambulance or even the police.

- Carl

If the school has reason to believe that a student is high or drunk or suffering from from some other infirmity, I feel it's completely appropriate for them address it to ensure the well being of the student. What might appear high or drunk could in fact be a diabetic reaction and life threatening, you never know so it's always best to play it safe. I know I'd rather them investigate even if that investigation is motivated by suspected drug use, than receive a call that my child had died while at school because they didn't.

I focused on the issue of dress because what seems to be the focus of the OP's frustration, is what she perceives as targeting or profiling her son unnecessarily because of the way he dresses, although her question was about the blood pressure. She mentioned his suspensions over his nail polish once and suspected drug use another time, and that this time they accused him of being a drug user.

As a parent I can understand this. While I would completely support them investigating abnormal behavior and a possible health condition in my daughter, I would be absolutely LIVID if they automatically assumed and labeled it due to illegal drug use without any other supporting evidence. Not only would I feel it was an unqualified diagnosis, if there was no validity to the claim aside from bias on the part of the school, I would have to raise some very serious questions about not only the damage that might cause to my childs self-esteem and emotional well being, I would also have to raise questions about the motivations and ability of those involved to provide a safe and equal education for my child or any other child.

Of course being who I am, I would first rush off to the doctor and have her tested and evaluated, and find out what the true cause might be, then gather all information regarding the results of those tests together and be ready to prove they were wrong before I went heading in there on a rampage

 

[Ohiogal]

*disclaimer*
I am only addressing the subject of targeting a student and subjecting them to undue scrutiny, investigation and suspicion solely on the basis of a differing personal style.


That in and of itself, (looking different that the "social norm") is not sufficient grounds for the school itself to discriminate against a student, harrass or suspend them. EVEN if they decide to write it into their dress code. Our public school system is not a private business or organization, it is a public institution and as such a representitive of the "state" not just the "social norm".

Take a look at what is refered to as "The Tinker Standard" in which the US Supreme Court stated:

"The District Court concluded that the action of the school authorities was reasonable because it was based upon their fear of a disturbance from the wearing of the armbands. But, in our system, undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression. Any departure from absolute regimentation may cause trouble. Any variation from the majority's opinion may inspire fear. Any word spoken, in class, in the lunchroom, or on the campus, that deviates from the views of another person may start an argument or cause a disturbance. But our Constitution says we must take this risk, Terminiello v. Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949); and our history says that it is this sort of hazardous freedom - this kind of openness - that is [393 U.S. 503, 509] the basis of our national strength and of the independence and vigor of Americans who grow up and live in this relatively permissive, often disputatious, society.

In order for the State in the person of school officials to justify prohibition of a particular expression of opinion, it must be able to show that its action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint"

A similar type of issue has been raised in more recent times pertaining to school dress policies banning pentacles in school. A pentacle is used as a symbol in the Wiccan and Pagan belief systems. In a society that predominantly follows a Christian belief system, not only does this symbol deviate from the social norm, it is often viewed as directly opposed to the values of the Christian belief system, and has been specificially banned in school dress policies. As a result students wearing this symbol in expression of their religious beliefs, have found themselves subject to disciplinary action by school systems, and even suspended. The US supreme court, has ruled repeatedly when this is brought before them that this is in direct violation of the students rights to religious expression forcing those schools to modify their dress codes. What I find interesting about this is, despite how many times this has happened, schools that have not ended up in court over this are to this day writing it into the dress codes, and actively pointing out this policy to parents when targeting and suspending students wearing them, apparently in hopes it won't be questioned. This happened to one of my daughters friends recently, after being suspended for it twice, frustrated he presented information regarding the Supreme Court determinations to his dean who responded by saying "You've really done you're research here" and excused him to return to class. He has been left alone since, but the policy itself is currently still in the books.

Sure, if you dress differently, or follow a different belief system or do anything that does not follow the majority, you WILL draw attention to yourself and you must be willing to accept that. People are scared of things that are unfamiliar, or different and would rather not have to deal with it, and they have a right to their opinions and fear. What they don't have a right to do, is violate another persons rights to keep from dealing with what they fear and find uncomfortable.

I know Tinker. But do you know Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier. That is another Supreme Court case which has been applied to more than just high school newspapers. This case gave schools the right to prevent anything that may cause a distraction from the learning process.
I understand your anger however your son does have to learn that he can be an individual but there are consequences to that. Is it fair? no. but life isnt' fair.

 

[AngelMyst]

And the person with the deviating manner of dress or beliefs also has to understand that their actions and beliefs ARE outside the social norm and they WILL be subject to scrutiny and even ridicule because of that. While they may have a right to be free of government interference in most forms of expression, they do NOT have a right to be free of the reaction and comments of others who disagree..

- Carl

Definately acknowledged which is why I bolded that part before when I said

Sure, if you dress differently, or follow a different belief system or do anything that does not follow the majority, you WILL draw attention to yourself and you must be willing to accept that. People are scared of things that are unfamiliar, or different and would rather not have to deal with it, and they have a right to their opinions and fear

In any situation involving opposing viewpoints, ones right to hold that view, does not negate the others right to oppose that view. One on one it's not a difficult concept to deal with. One against many takes a much stronger strength of will on the part of the one, and the ability to acknowledge that what gives the one the right to hold that view, gives the many the right to oppose that view.

 

[AngelMyst]

I know Tinker. But do you know Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier. That is another Supreme Court case which has been applied to more than just high school newspapers. This case gave schools the right to prevent anything that may cause a distraction from the learning process.
I understand your anger however your son does have to learn that he can be an individual but there are consequences to that. Is it fair? no. but life isnt' fair.

Not as familiar with Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier...I'm not a lawyer so I have to study and study before I take stand and make a comment

Regarding the last of your post...I'm not the original OP...wasn't my son LOL

When August originally posted there were so many responses that jumped on the Goth aspect of this and took issue with it, that I felt the need to offer an opposing and educated viewpoint.

I am in a bit of a unique position. I myself have a daughter that dresses Goth, but unlike many she has not been subjected herself to the type of targeting that most are. She's been in the same school system since 2nd grade, a very large percentage of the school population knew her long before she adopted this image and accepted her. Because she is so "real and honest", (no games, no agenda's, no competition) she is and has always been extremely well liked by the majority and her friendships are across the board, instead of having to fit into a specific group. (yes she's an angel)

As a result, I get to see so much of how the different groups respond and react to one another, and have to admit it can be a bit bothersome. When she has her 'goth' friends over they talk about music, games, anime and of course ...teachers. The worst problem I've ever had with them over is roughhousing and playing pile on the monkey type things, while laughing uproariously. When she has her friends over that fit the "social norm" the football players, cheerleaders and such those kids spend most of their time running other people down, talking about sneaking out, and who got drunk when and what they did. I've actually had to ask her not to bring some of them over because it got that bad, and found myself having that peer pressure discussion with her over them.

I sit back and look at all this, and what I see is that the goths are pretty safe for the most part, and generally are just doing their own thing. And the "social norm's" are scary and possibly dangerous spending way to much time hating other people, not just goths but their "peers". The stereotypes are nearly a complete reversal of what you see looking from this side.

*quick edit* this is in regards to when she has groups over...when it's just one it's not so bad....if I found that she was concentrating that much on those issues we'd have to have a long talk about it.

 

[Ohiogal]

Not as familiar with Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier...I'm not a lawyer so I have to study and study before I take stand and make a comment

Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier is a bit more recent than Tinker -- Hazelwood is from the 1980s. Gave school's the right to restrict disruptive behavior (or potentially disruptive behavior). Hazelwood specifically dealt with the administration pulling a student newspaper for its articles on divorce and pregnancy. The students sued. The Supreme Court sided with the school because of the possibility of the paper disrupting the learning environment -- allowed the administration to review and censor what was published. Also extended to allow schools to have to deal with other disruptions.


Regarding the last of your post...I'm not the original OP...wasn't my son LOL

My mistake.

When August originally posted there were so many responses that jumped on the Goth aspect of this and took issue with it, that I felt the need to offer an opposing and educated viewpoint.

And I agree in with your viewpoint.

I am in a bit of a unique position. I myself have a daughter that dresses Goth, but unlike many she has not been subjected herself to the type of targeting that most are. She's been in the same school system since 2nd grade, a very large percentage of the school population knew her long before she adopted this image and accepted her. Because she is so "real and honest", (no games, no agenda's, no competition) she is and has always been extremely well liked by the majority and her friendships are across the board, instead of having to fit into a specific group. (yes she's an angel)

Good for your daughter. Glad to hear she has her individuality and is still responsible.

As a result, I get to see so much of how the different groups respond and react to one another, and have to admit it can be a bit bothersome. When she has her 'goth' friends over they talk about music, games, anime and of course ...teachers. The worst problem I've ever had with them over is roughhousing and playing pile on the monkey type things, while laughing uproariously. When she has her friends over that fit the "social norm" the football players, cheerleaders and such those kids spend most of their time running other people down, talking about sneaking out, and who got drunk when and what they did. I've actually had to ask her not to bring some of them over because it got that bad, and found myself having that peer pressure discussion with her over them.

I sit back and look at all this, and what I see is that the goths are pretty safe for the most part, and generally are just doing their own thing. And the "social norm's" are scary and possibly dangerous spending way to much time hating other people, not just goths but their "peers". The stereotypes are nearly a complete reversal of what you see looking from this side.

I agree with what you say about Goth. Seriously. I am a lawyer and more importantly a responsible mother. But I also have my hair dyed dark red (so that it appears violet in some lights). I am getting married in a few months in a Gothic-style ceremony. I am wearing black as is my groom. My minister is a Wicca. I love the styles at Hot Topic and various other stores. I have piercings. And I have a unique style -- okay I am a gothic hillbilly -- love the clothes and style but am more likely to be found at a local honkytonk than a gothic metal club. That being said, I temper it. Which is something August's son may have to do at some point. When I go to court I dress or meet with other attorneys, I wear suits (okay so I wear boots on my feet but still dress in conservative suits) and carry a leather attache. My piercings are not flamboyant and I dont wear large dangling rings in them. I dont have tattoos but am thinking of getting one -- if I do it will be a form of rebellion on my shoulder or another discreet area that will not stand out in court. Other attorneys and judges have complimented me on my demeanor, knowledge and preparation.
Being an individual does not mean forcing the rest of the world to accept you. It means having your own thoughts and opinions and standing by them. But you have to accept the consequences of it.

 

[ceara19]

Most of those are banned by school dress codes, too. The fact is, if you don't want to attract negative attention, you don't (as an adolescent male) wear eyeliner and nail polish. Both you and your son are lying to yourselves by pretending he doesn't want to attract attention to himself.

I completely agree with what your saying, but if I can manage to get my son to adulthood and wearing nail polish and eyeliner are the biggest problem I have to deal with, I'll be very happy!

 

[august]

"Both you and your son are lying to yourselves by pretending he doesn't want to attract attention to himself."

What does "Attracting attention and fighting for what you love have in common?" Ok, If I like to dress a certain way, then I like too. It's as simple as that, does it really make me an individual that "thrives for attention?" I'm not running around shouting "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME...I'M DIFFERENT..." See I have something to tell you that you might need to figure out eventually at one point in your life. That is indeed that everyone is different, you and I,my mother, and your father are different. If everyone was the same what would be the point of living? Everyone walking around doing the same thing working the same job. Who said "Adolescent males are not allowed to wear black under their OWN eyes?" Who started that? Does it really matter what I do and or what I choose to wear? Everyone is born, everyone lives through their life, and yes, then you die. Does it matter what you look like in the process? Everyone one is different on the outside it may vary slightly to a drastic diffrence, yet everyone is the same on the inside, maybe you should sit back and try to let that soak through your skull. It just doesnt matter, if so then why does it matter? Why do you seem to care about what I do? If it's because I am different then Why do you care? If it's because you think that I am a bad person because of my looks or thoughts then Why do you care? Why should I care about what you think of me? Should I really take opinions from someone that doesnt even really know what they are talking about? Why should I? Give me that answer please. Why do you care?

-James-
<a href=www.myspace.com>-"Shifted Fate"-</a>

 

[stealth2]

I don't care in the least. But when you do something which falls outside of the norms of society, don't be surprised when you attract attention. Nor whine that you don't like attracting attention.