Massive Power Surge related to Auto Accident

[HankJS]

You are right, you don;t get it. The POCO does not have immunity. They simply do not have liability.

Friend, I do get it. I just don't understand it. What I do understand is utilities and any other big business, whatever and where ever it is has bought this protection from legislators, commissions and others to remain un-named here. That's why I can't breathe the air in my town, drink the water or go fishing in any near by stream. Where do I go to buy my protection and don't attempt to tell me insurance or a lawyer.

HankJS

 

[Zigner]

Friend, I do get it. I just don't understand it. What I do understand is utilities and any other big business, whatever and where ever it is has bought this protection from legislators, commissions and others to remain un-named here. That's why I can't breathe the air in my town, drink the water or go fishing in any near by stream. Where do I go to buy my protection and don't attempt to tell me insurance or a lawyer.

HankJS

Oh please. Some little old lady with (allegedly) defective brakes caused this problem. NOT the utility company.

I've got a headache - banging my head against a brick wall will do that to ya!

 

[justalayman]

Lets put it htis way Hank, I have seen the local POCO nearly buy a guys house for a situation quite similar to yours; with one exception, the power company mistakenly hooked up the wrong voltage to a circuit and did basically the same thing that happened with you due to the drivers fault.


they paid to repair all damage because it was their fault. They did not hide behind any immunity, which they do not actually have anyway. If they are the cause of a situation, they are just as liable as the average citizen for the damages. In your case, the POCO bares no liability.

Can they do more? Sure. Should they? Not to protect against your type of situaiotn. It is so uncommon that it would be paramount to having Los Vegas prepare for a tsunami. Well, maybe a bit more likely but it is still an unreasonable expectation to expect the POCO to protect you from every possibilty. You could not afford to buy electricity if they did. What we always have is a balance of cost weighed against benefits and the costs of protecting in this situation far outweigh the benefits.

Ask the engineer neighbor if they over engineer things at Square D. If he says yes, he lies. They engineer products to do only what they need and very little more. It is a cost thing. The POCO is forced to do the same.

 

[HankJS]

Lets put it htis way Hank,

Yes, sir. I'll do that. I'll keep the thread apprised on progress around claiming against the driver's property damage coverage. So far:
1) Initial call resulted in getting the wrong adjuster assigned.
2) Six days have gone by still no adjuster assigned and no claim number
3) Promise to have that fixed today, not done.

I truly hope the family burned out of their home is being taken better of.

Can they do more? Sure. Should they? Not to protect against your type of situaiotn.

At least grant me privilege of calling it callous.

Ask the engineer neighbor if they over engineer things at Square D. If he says yes, he lies. They engineer products to do only what they need and very little more. It is a cost thing. The POCO is forced to do the same.

He can say or think anything he wants, regardless of what the company does. He simply said they make voltage traps which are no more or less expensive than any piece of grid protection equipment. According to him, some use them many don't. I guess the few that do use them get a public boost and have figured out dead customers don't buy electricity.

HankJS

 

[justalayman]

He can say or think anything he wants, regardless of what the company does. He simply said they make voltage traps which are no more or less expensive than any piece of grid protection equipment. According to him, some use them many don't. I guess the few that do use them get a public boost and have figured out dead customers don't buy electricity.

HankJS

At best, the traps will LIMIT the damage. Since electricity can cause damage so fast, there is very little that can prevent all damage so they work on minimizing it. If you remember, your TVSS's gave their life to save your equipment. That is itself damage but it is an acceptable level of damage intended to prevent a greater damage.

If you are interested, here are a few electrical mishaps on video. There is a lot of energy to control at those voltages. It is not as simple as you make it sound.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3711901018934547191&q=electrical+explosion"&total=286&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9


There is only so much that can be done to protect equipment and personell. The POCO is liable for damage when not using required and industry standard precautions.

If you believe you have a better way, contact your states PSC and let them know. Sometimes it is a matter of complaints that get them to act on an issue. Worst they can do is tell you that all the required safetys were in place and functioning.

and again, I would like to suggest a whole house TVSS but realize that even with that system in place, it is still recommended to use a point of use TVSS as well. It is that cascading thing I spoke of.

 

[alnorth]

HankJS, if the utility is using industry-accepted standards for safety and design, they have met their obligation even without a law limiting liability. It's not the law thats saving them, they likely have no liability at all. They have a duty to provide reasonable accepted safety precautions, they do not have an obligation to provide the greatest safety measures in the world. Most people would rather have cheaper electricity and accept the extremely tiny risk of having your problem.

 

[HankJS]

At best, the traps will LIMIT the damage. Since electricity can cause damage so fast, there is very little that can prevent all damage so they work on minimizing it. If you remember, your TVSS's gave their life to save your equipment. That is itself damage but it is an acceptable level of damage intended to prevent a greater damage.

They sure did. I had a ~$4000 computer system on at the time of the surge and behind a hi-spec TVSS and held.

If you are interested, here are a few electrical mishaps on video. There is a lot of energy to control at those voltages. It is not as simple as you make it sound.

With my inordinate fascination with electricity, I had already found these.

If you believe you have a better way, contact your states PSC and let them know. Sometimes it is a matter of complaints that get them to act on an issue. Worst they can do is tell you that all the required safetys were in place and functioning.

The only reason I've turned this into a public matter is to have one of these agencies tell me all standards were met and this still happened. End of story.

I would like to suggest a whole house TVSS but realize that even with that system in place, it is still recommended to use a point of use TVSS as well. It is that cascading thing I spoke of.

I've googled the matter ad nauseam. There's a number of POCO's that offer whole house TVSS protectors, for installation cost and monthly fee. Not this one. Probably with good reason. A letter to the editor in the local newspaper today a gentleman says, with regard to this event, he has lived in 6 states and 3 foreign countries and has never seen so many occurrences of over voltage/current than he has with this location. I would guess any TVSS contractor that might want to partner with the local POCO to offer customers that protection would examine that record beforehand. And run for the hills if it were a bad record. (Maybe we have a sloppy company here. After all, this is Delaware, the first state but last in everything else since.)

HankJS

Back to the thread topic: Day 7 Another call to the driver's insurance carrier not returned and no claim adjuster assigned.

 

[Zigner]

Back to the thread topic: Day 7 Another call to the driver's insurance carrier not returned and no claim adjuster assigned.

Hank, the original thread topic was your tale of woe. You didn't ask for advice.
However, based on your original post, the utility company has no liability and the driver of the vehicle bears full liability for this incident.
You have stated that the driver doesn't have enough coverage to take care of all of the affected parties. So, whatever insurance coverage the driver DOES have will be divided up amongst the damaged parties (of which the utility company is a big portion).
So, since there is not enough insurance there, then the burden will fall on the affected parties' individual insurance coverages.

There, that should just about cover it!

PS: If you can't get a satisfactory answer from the driver's insurance company, file a lawsuit for your actual damages against the driver.

 

[ecmst12]

The only reason I've turned this into a public matter is to have one of these agencies tell me all standards were met and this still happened. End of story.

What you don't seem to be getting is that is EXACTLY why the utility company has no liability - the standards were met! Therefore, there was no negligence on the part of the utility company. Without negligence, there can be no liability.

You can, of course, go ahead and sue the driver. But don't expect a 79 year old with minimal liability coverage will have any assets to speak of.

This is one of the two reasons we have insurance. One is to cover damage that we do to other people that we are liable for. The other is to cover damage to OUR stuff, that we couldn't otherwise afford to replace, regardless of the cause of the damage. This would be a reason to have good homeowner's coverage with a deductible you can afford to pay. If the grand total of your damages was less than your deductible, you might consider NOT making a claim with the driver's insurance. That way there will be more money available on the policy for the people who truly need it - the ones with no coverage for electrical damage, or the one whose house burned down. If every person affected by the incident makes a claim, then each of you will get about $50 - hardly worth it. And it will be pro-rated - those with the most damage will get the most money - so you could end up with even less, while the one with $55k in damage to the house might get $1000.

 

[seniorjudge]

Hank got his answer many posts ago.

 

[HankJS]

What you don't seem to be getting is that is EXACTLY why the utility company has no liability - the standards were met! Therefore, there was no negligence on the part of the utility company. Without negligence, there can be no liability.

That's a completely circular argument. What really goads me here is the unquestionable, implicit and unwavering trust you have that business will do the right thing. This company is so confident in their non-liability, they have refused to send a representative to an area civic league meeting next week

What is your particular expertise to know that THIS installation has met standards. I don't have that expertise. I'm deferring to the PSC or the POCP itself.

Gotta' go, a thunderstorm is moving in!

HankJS

 

[justalayman]

hank

I've googled the matter ad nauseam. There's a number of POCO's that offer whole house TVSS protectors, for installation cost and monthly fee. Not this one. Probably with good reason. A letter to the editor in the local newspaper today a gentleman says, with regard to this event, he has lived in 6 states and 3 foreign countries and has never seen so many occurrences of over voltage/current than he has with this location. I would guess any TVSS contractor that might want to partner with the local POCO to offer customers that protection would examine that record beforehand. And run for the hills if it were a bad record. (Maybe we have a sloppy company here. After all, this is Delaware, the first state but last in everything else since.)

there is no need to have a POCO involved with having a TVSS. It is simply a large version of what saved your computer.

try this link for a bit of info:

http://www.littelfuse.com/tvss.html

google TVSS for more.

They are required by the engineers in most larger eletrical services and in many smaller ones. I just installed an 800 amp service with one in it. It has nothing to do with the POCO and there is no ongoing cost or maintainance even.

 

[HankJS]

I just installed an 800 amp service with one in it. It has nothing to do with the POCO and there is no ongoing cost or maintainance even.

800amps! Does the Amtrak Northeast Corridor run trains through your house? My panel is 250 and I thought that was good, 50amps above code.

Getting back on topic: The driver's insurance carrier has cut a check to the POCO already and I haven't heard from the local claims adjuster yet. 7 days and counting.

There might be as many 360 claims from here and surrounding communities, so I managed to get the state insurance commissioner's office to dedicate an investigator to handle them all if problems start to arise.

Incidentally, the state's N/F property damage liability requirement is $10,000. If that's all the driver is carrying, I'd be lucky to see a penny on the dollar.

HankJS

 

[justalayman]

Srry Hank, did not intend to infer it was at my house. It is at a small ice skating rink.

From what you have stated. you may be right as to recieving little or nothing. The last time I remember seeing somebody pay for a pole, it was over $5k after all was said and done.

I do not recall, have you spoken to your homeowners insurance? That may be your only hope other than the insurance some of the companies provode on their sure supressors.

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=174

hear is a website for APC and their whole house TVSS. $250 plus installation.

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=174

I just saw that Schneider Electric bought APC. Since Schneider also owns Square D, Maybe the neighbors kid can get you a deal on the equipment to provide a protection system for your house.

this is the page that lists APC's replacement payments for their various products. I would think competitors offer some similar replacement payments if their product does not do as promised. You might also look into that possibility since you are probably not going to get anything from the driver.

 

[HankJS]

I do not recall, have you spoken to your homeowners insurance? That may be your only hope other than the insurance some of the companies provode on their sure supressors.

I was one of the lucky ones, with good TVSS protection. So my losses were limited to the 6 TVSS's and a VCR that wasn't protected. My computer system was even on at the time and survived. I didn't meet my $250 deductible, so I have to go after the driver's policy. The 2 laptop AC adapters were covered by separate insurance and have been replaced already.

We advised the community to use their homeowners policy first, then the driver's policy to make up deductibles and losses not covered.

The irony of this is because I had the proper protection, but still had real loss in having to replace TVSS's and didn't make my homeowners deductible, I will probably be one not to be made whole. POCO's, Verizon and homeowners insurance recoveries will all come in line before me.

New question: If there is insufficient PD coverage, will corporate entities receive preferential prorating over individuals?

HankJS