Unemployment compensation mess

[RedemptionMan]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Tennessee

I worked for a company where I was only there for 3 months, I was to complete a sales certification process which was part of my continued employment which involved the sales manager and director for this particular company. I failed the first one and had to have it rescheduled. I got sick two days before the second certification process and was out of town on sales call two days before selling a contract. I went to the doctor later that day and got medicine and anitbodics for a real bad sinus infection. Well I woke up the day of the sales certification process and called my boss to tell him that I could not speak, I was whispering the whole time for him and literally could not talk. I was sick with a doctors note and he told me if I could not come in then I need to bring my stuff back in and that I was quote unquote DONE. I did what he told me to do and just said I will find another job and left it at that. I went and filed unemployment and have been drawing it for the past 6 months. Fast forward to two weeks ago, I get a surprise call from some unemployment investigator, evidently they sent the original determination letter to a previous employer and not this company. Now they want a statement from them and the story has changed they (the boss and two employees) are telling the unemployment office that I quit and that I was not fired. I do not know what to do, I have everything documented from the unemployment office to the doctors note. I shared the doctors note with them and they acted like they did not care but they care now that this is over and they have a determination of disqualification due to statements that are not true and or lies. People lie, I get that, the date they put on the determination letter is even the wrong date that they said I quit. I keep ALL documents, and have proof the date is not correct (previous pay stubs) as well as the doctor's note that shows I was sick. Personal illness is not grounds for disqualification but quitting is and I can promise you all that I did not quit this job. It took me a while to find another one and in this market no would just quit like that. I have an appeal in process but am wondering what facts I can bring up? If I received benefits that I was not entitled too then I do not mind giving them back but with the possibility of two errors (mailed original determination letter to wrong employer and wrong separation date on new determination letter) from the Unemployment people, I just do not know what to do. I know that there are people on here who know unemployment law and compensation real well, and I would appreciate any advice. thanks

 

[swalsh411]

What you should have done is not come into work on the day you were sick and let them fire you. It sounds like you quit before you gave them the opportunity. Threatening to fire somebody if they do X (in your case, not come into work) is not the same as firing them.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

It appears you quit rather than go to work as instructed and scheduled. You said you were going to find another job.

 

[RedemptionMan]

It appears you quit rather than go to work as instructed and scheduled. You said you were going to find another job.

Uhhh did you read the freaking statement? He told me to bring my stuff in and that I was done if I could not do it. I was sick and not able to go to work and did what I was told to do. If they had sent the determination letter to the correct employer to begin with then this would not have been a done deal. Really waiting for commentator or some other poster with REAL unemployment insurance experience to chime in.

I know the difference from quitting and getting fired. The dates again are wrong on the letter. It does not matter though they are at fault and I will pursue it to every appeal I can get to.....

 

[commentator]

Dump the attitude here if you want help from us. Swalsh and many other people on these boards are about as knowledgeable as anyone you'll find regarding unemployment benefits and appeals. Just because you hear something you don't like does not mean you need to give us attitude when we're trying to help.

You've got a lot of resentful angry attitude and a lot of "they" did this to me and that to me that's hard to follow in your post here. It's hard to tell which "they" you're talking about. You're upset with the employer, (because they lied)and you're upset with the unemployment system because they approved your claim and then are retracting that decision, somebody put a wrong date somewhere and you're upset about that, and you're upset with the people here who tried to answer your questions or point out to you that yes, it very much does sound like a "quit."

Doesn't sound like the new job was working out for you, and you had failed to get the certification out of the way once, and then you didn't get there to take the test the second time, and the boss said you were over if you didn't come in and take it and you said you were too sick, and yada yada.

That the unemployment office supposedly made mistakes, mailed the original inquiry letters to the wrong employer, used the wrong date or whatever does not mean that you are going to be let off the hook for whether or not you are eligible or get to keep the money.

Even if you were denied or approved in error, they will, when they discover the error, go back and correct it, by doing another hearing and decision with the corrected information (or in this case, from the corrected employer) and you may or may not be determined eligible or over paid.

First of all, let's try to clarify. You filed your claim for unemployment. Had you been filing before, by any chance, and stopped a claim to take this new job, or did you file only after this last job? When you filed your claim, or reopened your existing claim, the claims office asked, "Who was your last employer?
and "What was the last day you worked?"

We assume you gave them the correct answers here. It was the company you worked for for the most recent three months, right? So where did they get the address of the wrong company? Did you not notice anywhere on your paperwork that your last employer listed was not the most recent employer?

The last day you worked would have been the last days you were actually on the payroll, probably those two days you were out of town before the date you were supposed to do the recertification, right?

And the day you were supposed to take the test, you called your employer and told him you were too sick to come to work. Later that day, you went to the doctor? Right?

You say your employer said if you could not take the test or cert or whatever it is, to bring your stuff in, and you were done. And you "did what he told me to do" which I assume means you "brought your stuff in". Did you do that the same day you were supposed to take the recert and you talked to him?

If so, what was said to you and what did you say on that day? And at some point you said you'd "just find another job." That sounds one heck of a lot like you were quitting the job. It's quite a gray area, and the unemployment system will want to explore it thoroughly.

Though it's very unusual for an appeal to get through this long after the claim has been approved, sometimes it happens. I gather you maybe worked for another employer before this one, and were laid off due to lack of work from their employment. is this the case? In any case, each employer that is being charged for your unemployment benefits receives a quarterly statement, and I would suspect one of the charged employer has questioned your claim and drawn attention to the errors made.

Since you say you save everything, what did your initial decision approving benefits for you say? Who does it list as your employer? Since you have only worked a short time for this later employer, most of the benefits in your claim would be coming from the account of your previous employer, not the ones you last worked for. But the reason you left that employer is definitely a genuine concern and related to your eligibility.

If the unemployment office made a mistake and failed to obtain your separation information from the most recent employer, and approved your claim based on the previous employer before this last one, then no wonder they weren't interested in your doctor's statement at the time they took your claim. But it won't hurt anything to have it now. Though you didn't give it to your employer to verify or try to show that you were too ill to come in the day you were supposed to be tested, it still may support your case that you were indeed ill.

Frankly, it sounds like you quit because you were told you were going to be fired. That's what you should tell the employment appeals division. Don't be accusative, just stick strictly with the facts. You were ill, you did later see the doctor and have a doctor's statement that you were too ill to go in on the day that you were supposed to do the certification. But when your employer told you that if you didn't make it in that day to do the certification your employment with the company was over, you did lead him to believe you accepted that, and you'd bring in your things and find another job.

I don't understand why you are in such a tizzy because of the wrong date. What wrong date are you talking about?Do you mean the last date you actually worked for your last employer, or the last day when they told you to bring in your stuff, that you were over if you didn't come and take the certification test? It really doesn't make that much difference, you know.

If you are disqualified, it would be because the claims department has determined you did voluntarily quit that last job by refusing to come in and take the certification for the second time after you had already taken it once unsuccessfully. You state that you were too sick to come in and take the test that day. You told your boss that over the phone, and he told you that if you didn't come in, you were done. You interpreted this as to mean you were fired. You told him you'd just bring in your stuff and find another job, but that was after, by your understanding, he had told you that you were being terminated.

Re-read what has been discussed here recently on other posts. It is not unthinkable that the employer might lie to the claims office. It does not matter how indignant you feel, or how much in the right you believe yourself to be, you just have to present your case very concisely and as it happened, and they'll make the determination about whether or not your claim should have been approved.

If you are denied by decision, after they do the review and you have your appeals, you will probably not have to pay the money back immediately. They may keep it on your account. It would be a 'non fraud' overpayment, so you would not have any penalties or sanctions attached to the overpayment. But you're not there yet. Do not panic. Answer my questions, be patient, and let this thing get sorted out as it will.

 

[RedemptionMan]

First of all, let's try to clarify. You filed your claim for unemployment. Had you been filing before, by any chance, and stopped a claim to take this new job, or did you file only after this last job? When you filed your claim, or reopened your existing claim, the claims office asked, "Who was your last employer?
and "What was the last day you worked?"

Yes, that information was correct they took my statement which I still have and got a statement from the previous employer for the reasons of termination it involved not being there for the second sales certification process. The only problem is that when the employment agency mailed the letter they mailed it to another previous employer who I worked for and I at the time did not know the legalities of it nor try to correct for I would have.

We assume you gave them the correct answers here. It was the company you worked for for the most recent three months, right? So where did they get the address of the wrong company? Did you not notice anywhere on your paperwork that your last employer listed was not the most recent employer?

I gave the address correctly they looked it up on the computer and had that information. I have no idea why they mailed the determination letter to another previous employer.

The last day you worked would have been the last days you were actually on the payroll, probably those two days you were out of town before the date you were supposed to do the recertification, right?

Yes and I have the pay stubs for them but they list my separation date as a month before (in disqual letter) and that I quit which is not the case. I plan to provide that documentation as well.

And the day you were supposed to take the test, you called your employer and told him you were too sick to come to work. Later that day, you went to the doctor? Right?

I went to the doctor a day or two before that and was actually told to take 2-3 days off, I lost my voice on the second day when the certification was to take place. The manager acted like he would work with me but when it came time to do it he told me to bring my stuff in if I could not do it right then and I did what I was told.

You say your employer said if you could not take the test or cert or whatever it is, to bring your stuff in, and you were done. And you "did what he told me to do" which I assume means you "brought your stuff in". Did you do that the same day you were supposed to take the recert and you talked to him?

If so, what was said to you and what did you say on that day? And at some point you said you'd "just find another job." That sounds one heck of a lot like you were quitting the job. It's quite a gray area, and the unemployment system will want to explore it thoroughly.

the day after and nothing was really said other than me saying I would find another job and I have a dated letter a few weeks later of me accepting another position.

Though it's very unusual for an appeal to get through this long after the claim has been approved, sometimes it happens. I gather you maybe worked for another employer before this one, and were laid off due to lack of work from their employment.

Since you say you save everything, what did your initial decision approving benefits for you say? Who does it list as your employer? Since you have only worked a short time for this later employer, most of the benefits in your claim would be coming from the account of your previous employer, not the ones you last worked for. But the reason you left that employer is definitely a genuine concern and related to your eligibility.

If the unemployment office made a mistake and failed to obtain your separation information from the most recent employer, and approved your claim based on the previous employer before this last one, then no wonder they weren't interested in your doctor's statement at the time they took your claim. But it won't hurt anything to have it now. Though you didn't give it to your employer to verify or try to show that you were too ill to come in the day you were supposed to be tested, it still may support your case that you were indeed ill.

I have it in my appeal statement, they original made a Non disqual letter (sent to wrong previous employer) but recently sent a disqual letter as an amendment to it. 7 months after the non disqual letter.

Frankly, it sounds like you quit because you were told you were going to be fired. That's what you should tell the employment appeals division. Don't be accusative, just stick strictly with the facts. You were ill, you did later see the doctor and have a doctor's statement that you were too ill to go in on the day that you were supposed to do the certification. But when your employer told you that if you didn't make it in that day to do the certification your employment with the company was over, you did lead him to believe you accepted that, and you'd bring in your things and find another job.

I don't understand why you are in such a tizzy because of the wrong date. What wrong date are you talking about?Do you mean the last date you actually worked for your last employer, or the last day when they told you to bring in your stuff, that you were OVER if you didn't come and take the certification test? It really doesn't make that much difference, you know.

because that is an error, I thinking a typo from the UI folks but then it could be in their statement. For if they said I quit then why would they say I quit a month earlier and the disqualification letter I have states that I must file a claim or have worked at least 30 days for the previous employer. There is some sort of stipulation about length of time of employment and claim qualifications. I do not know?

If you are disqualified, it would be because the claims department has determined you did voluntarily quit that last job by refusing to come in and take the certification for the second time after you had already taken it once unsuccessfully. You state that you were too sick to come in and take the test that day. You told your boss that over the phone, and he told you that if you didn't come in, you were done. You interpreted this as to mean you were fired. You told him you'd just bring in your stuff and find another job, but that was after, by your understanding, he had told you that you were being terminated.

right, I thought I was fired. I mean I did not question him on it and it appeared he was not going to work with me since I asked him if I could reschedule and that is what he said.

Re-read what has been discussed here recently on other posts. It is not unthinkable that the employer might lie to the claims office. It does not matter how indignant you feel, or how much in the right you believe yourself to be, you just have to present your case very concisely and as it happened, and they'll make the determination about whether or not your claim should have been approved.

If you are denied by decision, after they do the review and you have your appeals, you will probably not have to pay the money back immediately. They may keep it on your account. It would be a 'non fraud' overpayment, so you would not have any penalties or sanctions attached to the overpayment. But you're not there yet. Do not panic. Answer my questions, be patient, and let this thing get sorted out as it will.

that is why I was hoping you would help with it cause I know you know your stuff. I have a lot of documentation for the appeal. I have reviewed the law and understand there is a stipulation in it for non fraud over payment and the ability to not have to pay it back for agency error. I have a real problem with people who lie, I can not stand it and it makes me very upset hence one reason I could never be an attorney. I would be red faced and heart attack ridden within 5 years. If they would have done this correctly from the beginning then I would not be in this situation now. I am prepared for the former bosses lies and I know he is the type of person to lie to the board then laugh about it behind my back. I was also belittled and harassed when I worked there since I was slightly older than the other employees and they were friends but I was willing to continue my employment and work through that. It appears it was an agency mistake that they did not follow the proper procedures from that claim. With that said, this was not my fault and should have been handled when the claim was filed before money given. I do not think I will ever EVER take another unemployment compensation check. I would work any were I can doing anything before I would do that.

 

[commentator]

I am more confused than ever. It sounds from what you are saying here that after the employer told you that if you did not come in and take the cert test that day, you were terminated. But then you appear to be saying you went in and worked a while longer, after telling them you'd just find work someplace else, and then you provided them with a letter saying you'd accepted another job offer. How long was this after the day you were supposed to take the cert test and didn't?

What happened to the job you were supposed to be going to? Did you work there?

It is perfectly legal for a company to terminate you even with a doctor's statement saying you cannot come to work. No one cares how you were being treated or how much you liked or disliked the job. You must forget about this as it is not going to be an issue in the approval or denial of your claim.

There appears to be some confusion about what the last date you worked really is. But if you listed that date correctly on your paperwork, and you have check stubs to show you were working until what you say is the last date, what they're saying really doesn't matter. Likewise that they are saying you quit. They can say that if they want to. As we said, there's the assumption that one or both of the involved parties may be lying at all times in the claim process.

And you really need to suck it up about the "I can't stand it when people lie." Oh yes you can. People lie all the time, it's not your business to make the world work right. It is to your advantage to be calm and rational, instead of getting all indignant to the point that it makes you behave inefficiently.

Don't get all snippy and say you just won't ever ever file another unemployment claim, take that, you rotten messed up system! That's like saying you won't use your car insurance because you don't like the way they process claims! It hurts no one but yourself. Because the system doesn't care, and there's no inherent virtue in your not getting any more checks. If you are entitled to them, you are entitled to them, and if you're not, you're not.

In the beginning, you filed a claim for benefits. You gave the correct employer and gave them the statement, in which, we assume, you said you were terminated for not coming in to take the certification. You gave them the doctor's statement. They mailed the inquiry about this situation to the wrong employer, right?

So we assume that they got no answer. After waiting a few days, and usually attempting to reach the employer by telephone, as they are supposed to do, they rendered a decision approving your benefits. They send a letter telling you that your claim was approved, right? This is called an initial decision letter. What does it say? Who is listed as your separating employer?

I suspect that your former employer got the quarterly report showing you were receiving benefits, and protested the claim. An investigation was done, and it was determined that the inquiry letter was sent to the wrong place, and they were, in fact, given no opportunity to protest your approval for benefits. When this was determined, the system immediately began a correction process.

As I said, just because they made an error does not mean they have to let you keep drawing or not stop your claim. What they will do now is take your information and take the company's information and make a new, hopefully more correct decision. Have they done this already, or have they just stopped your claim until the decision is made?

If they have made a new decision based on what the company says is the reason you are not working for them, they should have given you an opportunity to appeal this decision. Have you done this already? If so, do you have a date when your appeals hearing is to be held? Continue to file weekly certifications each week, even though you are not receiving benefits. If you are approved in appeals, you will be back paid for these weeks IF you have certified for it.

Read about the hearings as described in recent posts. Instead of being so frothy about what you perceive as the mistakes of the unemployment office and the lies of your previous employer, work at this as a situation where you need to organize and present the facts exactly as they actually happened. Right now, I am not able to get a clear picture of what happened, what sort of timeline is here, what exactly is going on. If I were the hearing officer at your appeals hearing, I would be asking you for a lot of clarification, none of the extraneous stuff.

From what you are saying, it sounds a lot like you are planning to go into your hearing and do the biggest no no of all, you're going to try to cite unemployment case law and argue with the official about your case based on this or that statute. DO NOT think about doing this, unless you want to lose the case. You are not expected to know unemployment law. The hearing officer will know a lot more of it than you do and will really be irritated if you try this.

Instead, you tell the story of exactly what happened. What was the last day you worked for this company? What, exactly was said to you on that last day? Did you quit your job?

Forget telling them what they need to do or what was wrong with the system or about errors they made or how they sent the inquiry letter to the wrong employer. They are not going to consider this, they're going to determine if you did, in fact, quit your job, or if you were discharged because you did not come in to take the test.

 

[RedemptionMan]

I am more confused than ever. It sounds from what you are saying here that after the employer told you that if you did not come in and take the cert test that day, you were terminated. But then you appear to be saying you went in and worked a while longer, after telling them you'd just find work someplace else, and then you provided them with a letter saying you'd accepted another job offer. How long was this after the day you were supposed to take the cert test and didn't?

What happened to the job you were supposed to be going to? Did you work there?

It is perfectly legal for a company to terminate you even with a doctor's statement saying you cannot come to work. No one cares how you were being treated or how much you liked or disliked the job. You must forget about this as it is not going to be an issue in the approval or denial of your claim.

There appears to be some confusion about what the last date you worked really is. But if you listed that date correctly on your paperwork, and you have check stubs to show you were working until what you say is the last date, what they're saying really doesn't matter. Likewise that they are saying you quit. They can say that if they want to. As we said, there's the assumption that one or both of the involved parties may be lying at all times in the claim process.

And you really need to suck it up about the "I can't stand it when people lie." Oh yes you can. People lie all the time, it's not your business to make the world work right. It is to your advantage to be calm and rational, instead of getting all indignant to the point that it makes you stupid and inefficient. Don't get all snippy and say you just won't file another unemployment claim, take that, you rotten messed up system! Because the system doesn't care, and there's no inherent virtue in your not getting any more checks. If you are entitled to them, you are entitled to them, and if you're not, you're not.

In the beginning, you filed a claim for benefits. You gave the correct employer and gave them the statement, in which, we assume, you said you were terminated for not coming in to take the certification. You gave them the doctor's statement. They mailed the inquiry about this situation to the wrong employer, right?

So we assume that they got no answer. After waiting a few days, and usually attempting to reach the employer by telephone, as they are supposed to do, they rendered a decision approving your benefits. They send a letter telling you that your claim was approved, right? This is called an initial decision letter. What does it say? Who is listed as your separating employer?

I suspect that your former employer got the quarterly report showing you were receiving benefits, and protested the claim. An investigation was done, and it was determined that the inquiry letter was sent to the wrong place, and they were, in fact, given no opportunity to protest your approval for benefits. When this was determined, the system immediately began a correction process.

As I said, just because they made an error does not mean they have to let you keep drawing or not stop your claim. What they will do now is take your information and take the company's information and make a new, hopefully more correct decision. Have they done this already, or have they just stopped your claim until the decision is made?

If they have made a new decision based on what the company says is the reason you are not working for them, they should have given you an opportunity to appeal this decision. Have you done this already? If so, do you have a date when your appeals hearing is to be held? Continue to file weekly certifications each week, even though you are not receiving benefits. If you are approved in appeals, you will be back paid for these weeks IF you have certified for it.

Read about the hearings as described in recent posts. Instead of being so frothy about what you perceive as the mistakes of the unemployment office and the lies of your previous employer, work at this as a situation where you need to organize and present the facts exactly as they actually happened. Right now, I am not able to get a clear picture of what happened, what sort of timeline is here, what exactly is going on. If I were the hearing officer at your appeals hearing, I would be asking you for a lot of clarification, none of the extraneous stuff.

From what you are saying, it sounds a lot like you are planning to go into your hearing and do the biggest no no of all, you're going to try to cite unemployment case law and argue with the official about your case based on this or that statute. DO NOT think about doing this, unless you want to lose the case. You are not expected to know unemployment law. The hearing officer will know a lot more of it than you do and will really be irritated if you try this.

Instead, you tell the story of exactly what happened. What was the last day you worked for this company? What, exactly was said to you on that last day? Did you quit your job?

Forget telling them what they need to do or what was wrong with the system or about errors they made or how they sent the inquiry letter to the wrong employer. They are not going to consider this, they're going to determine if you did, in fact, quit your job, or if you were discharged because you did not come in to take the test.

I worked for this company for 3 months. I got ill when I suppose to do a sales certification process, I went to the doctor a few days before and he told me to stay off work for 2 days. The day of the sales certification I call my boss and tell him I am sick and that I could not make it in that day. He told me right then and there that if I could not come in today and do the sales certification process that I was done and to bring my stuff in. I do not know why the disqualification letter (re determination from the original non disqualification letter) had the wrong separation date (state I quit) date or how they seem so sure that I quit on that date but it is not accurate. I have pay stubs that I did not leave till over a month later. I was really sick and on prescription drugs which would not allow me to drive so I had my spouse drive me to the location. I dropped off my stuff and showed them my Doctor's not but he did not care. I think the manager just told every one that I quit cause I had another job which is not correct. It took me another month to find another job. He insisted I bring the stuff up there that day which is why I had someone drive me cause I was on a hydrocodine antihistamine drug. Again, I do not know how that is quitting when I was fired but the burden of proof is on me to prove I did not quit instead of them having to prove that I was fired for misconduct. This makes it very very difficult for me but I am going to speak the truth and hope for the best.

 

[justalayman]

just to get this out of the way:

a doctor's note, letter, certification, etc, doesn't mean squat. If your employer tells you to come to work, that is what it means. They do not have to accept the doctors statement for anything. The only thing the doctors note would help with is determining whether you were fired for cause and disqualifying you or there was a justification to some extent for your actions and as such, you could be approved for UI benefits.

He told me right then and there that if I could not come in today and do the sales certification process that I was done and to bring my stuff in.

so, then employer is viewing that as you chose to not come in and as such, you were quitting. It actually was in your hands at that point so I do not totally disagree with their position on the matter.

I got ill when I suppose to do a sales certification process, I went to the doctor a few days before and he told me to stay off work for 2 days.

so you got ill a few days before the certification deal and the doc recommended to stay home 2 days. Since when is 2 days more than a few days?

I was really sick and on prescription drugs which would not allow me to drive so I had my spouse drive me to the location. I dropped off my stuff and showed them my Doctor's not but he did not care.

so your employer said; either come to work or turn in your stuff. You chose to turn in your stuff. Again, not a termination by the employer but they put it in your hands: come to work or we accept it as you are quitting and they reported it as such.




and now we'll return to our normally scheduled program of:

Commentator and your situation

 

[RedemptionMan]

just to get this out of the way:

a doctor's note, letter, certification, etc, doesn't mean squat. If your employer tells you to come to work, that is what it means. They do not have to accept the doctors statement for anything. The only thing the doctors note would help with is determining whether you were fired for cause and disqualifying you or there was a justification to some extent for your actions and as such, you could be approved for UI benefits.



so, then employer is viewing that as you chose to not come in and as such, you were quitting. It actually was in your hands at that point so I do not totally disagree with their position on the matter.


so you got ill a few days before the certification deal and the doc recommended to stay home 2 days. Since when is 2 days more than a few days?


so your employer said; either come to work or turn in your stuff. You chose to turn in your stuff. Again, not a termination by the employer but they put it in your hands: come to work or we accept it as you are quitting and they reported it as such.




and now we'll return to our normally scheduled program of:

Commentator and your situation

since when is if you do not come in and do this not a firing? Since when is that statement not a statement of termination? They had my original statement the same one they sent a determination letter on that was approved for UI benefits less than a month after the separation. The company has a right to fight the determination and they have done that and got a re-determination letter. I mean it is the same statement it did not change, either come in and do this which is not a disqualification since I had a doctor's note or turn your stuff in. I mean every one I have asked has said it is being fired you not given a choice, involuntary resignation is discharge is firing. Same thing. I guess you all could argue I was given a choice but since I was ill and had a doctor's note that choice for continued employment went away as I had a non disqualification reason as to why I could not come. I did not quit they have NO resignation letter nor did I turn in a notice. It is right to work but not right to drive you in the ground, if you can not make it in due to illness. If you want to change the interpretation, I have my arguments and they deal with the facts and not hearsay or incorrect information. They will have their side of the story and I will have mine. I will go through 10 appeals if I have too.

 

[justalayman]

RedemptionMan;3228959]since when is if you do not come in and do this not a firing?

when they say:

We aren't telling you you are fired because you aren't. You can come to work. If you do not come in to work, that is your decision and we will interpret that as you quitting.

Since when is that statement not a statement of termination?

it is a termination but from their perspective, it was your choice to not come to work knowing that they would accept that as you making the determination to quit.

They had my original statement the same one they sent a determination letter on that was approved for UI benefits less than a month after the separation.

so, when you said the UI department sent the letter to the wrong employer you were lying? mistaken? what?




The company has a right to fight the determination and they have done that and got a re-determination letter. I mean it is the same statement it did not change

, either come in and do this which is not a disqualification since I had a doctor's note or turn your stuff in.

a doctors note does not mean you would not be disqualified. It helps but in itself it is not the only factor.

I mean every one I have asked has said it is being fired you not given a choice, involuntary resignation is discharge is firing.

it wasn't involuntary resignation. You did it knowingly. Remember; be here or turn in your stuff. What did you choose?

Same thing. I guess you all could argue I was given a choice but since I was ill and had a doctor's note that choice for continued employment went away as I had a non disqualification reason as to why I could not come.

well, that has yet to be determined. That is why you are here, yes?

I did not quit they have NO resignation letter nor did I turn in a notice.

so?


they did not tell you you were fired. They actually said they expected you to be at work that day. You chose to not come in. They said if you do not come in, they will accept it as your decision to terminate. You chose to stay home. Your decision.

You are putting way too much weight on this doctors note. An employer has no obligation to respect the recommendations of your doctor. Again, it provides some defense to why you refused to go to work but in itself, it is not your savior.

It is right to work but not right to drive you in the ground, if you can not make it in due to illness.

well, believe it or not, you are wrong. There are actually very few limitations of what your employer can demand of you.

If you want to change the interpretation, I have my arguments and they deal with the facts and not hearsay or incorrect information.

are you saying you have provided incorrect information? The only info I have is what you have provided so if it is incorrect info, then it is due to you providing incorrect info.

.

I will go through 10 appeals if I have too

well, actually you won't because there are only a few appeals possible. Once you have exhausted them, you may have a right to sue. If you want to do that, have at it. The costs will not justify the returns though.

 

[OHRoadwarrior]

I suspect the point he is missing here is having voice problems should not have affected his ability to take the tests. Failure to take the tests apparently rendered him useless for the employers purposes for a period of time they were unwilling to suffer.

 

[RedemptionMan]

when they say:
We aren't telling you you are fired because you aren't. You can come to work. If you do not come in to work, that is your decision and we will interpret that as you quitting.

Told me I was done and to bring my stuff in, does not appear that their was an option to remain employed. I asked to reschedule and that is what he said.

it is a termination but from their perspective, it was your choice to not come to work knowing that they would accept that as you making the determination to quit.

so, when you said the UI department sent the letter to the wrong employer you were lying? mistaken? what?

they got a correct statement from them to begin with, they have my statement and the original statement from them. However, UI sent the determination letter to the wrong employer. This was a set up deal, the whole thing was. I got a disqualification letter 3 days from giving a my side of the story to the UI people.

The company has a right to fight the determination and they have done that and got a re-determination letter. I mean it is the same statement it did not changea doctors note does not mean you would not be disqualified. It helps but in itself it is not the only factor.

Evidentally not, this determination letter should have been handled months ago and not now. The process gives them the benefit of the doubt with wrong dates for me supposedly quitting. I however have pay stubs that show it was not the date they said it was and if they are lying about that what else are they lying about?

it wasn't involuntary resignation. You did it knowingly. Remember; be here or turn in your stuff. What did you choose?
well, that has yet to be determined. That is why you are here, yes? so?

that I guess would be open to interpretation. How come they felt like I did to begin with and it only became an issue later on when they found out they mailed the original determination letter to the wrong employer?

they did not tell you you were fired. They actually said they expected you to be at work that day. You chose to not come in. They said if you do not come in, they will accept it as your decision to terminate. You chose to stay home. Your decision.

You are putting way too much weight on this doctors note. An employer has no obligation to respect the recommendations of your doctor. Again, it provides some defense to why you refused to go to work but in itself, it is not your savior.

they did not say anything of the kind. He told other people in the office that he fired me, I took it as a termination and not a choosing to quit. I have quit a job or two in my lifetime and I always give a notice and intention of separation. You are correct they do not have to honor it but the unemployment officials do have to recognize it as a factor in me not being able to be at work that day. I never said it was my savior, all I can hope for is to get them caught up in a bunch of lies and watch the rope tighten around their necks.

well, believe it or not, you are wrong. There are actually very few limitations of what your employer can demand of you.

are you saying you have provided incorrect information? The only info I have is what you have provided so if it is incorrect info, then it is due to you providing incorrect info.

.well, actually you won't because there are only a few appeals possible. Once you have exhausted them, you may have a right to sue. If you want to do that, have at it. The costs will not justify the returns though.

[/QUOTE]

I know the odds are stacked against me, only 20-30 percent of the Employee appeals are over turned, when the times come I will pursue it to the fullest. I feel like this employer whether he was bluffing or not, whether his intention was to get me to quit in order to get out of unemployment or whether he is just trying to be difficult. I do not know and do not care other than hopefully the truth will come out. I have everything documented real well and besides a recording of him saying that to me it is the best I can do. I have read the statues in regards to recovery of the funds and there is a section in it that states that you can be exempt from payment if it is determined that you are not at fault for the overpayment. Had the office sent the original determination letter to the correct company this would never have been an issue. I am going to fight it, and hope for the best.

 

[commentator]

Sigh. R-man, you are not listening. Catch the wave, here, man. Fight this smart. Realize just exactly WHAT you are appealing about. Forget justice and punishment for the guilty. You're only here to win this appeal and get to keep your unemployment benefits.

To begin with, everything these posters are saying to you are very valid arguments. And instead of listening to them and realizing that what they say are valid points that could be used to argue against your version of the firing/quit, you are jousting at them as if they'd insulted your parentage because they don't agree with you and believe you emphatically. Instead your job is to craft your presentation so these ideas do not arise, the appeals officer does not leave the hearing with the idea that you actually did voluntarily quit your job.

Righteous indignation is NOT what you want to go into the hearing with. To begin with, you're not going to jump up and cross examine and demand the truth and prove the employer is lying. You're just going to craft your story in such a way that it is reasonable and believable.

Then you're going to tell that story. Not read it from a statement, tell it. Possibly ask a few clarifying questions of your employer, AFTER you hear their testimony, IF they show up for the hearing.

Please, in all arguments and provisions of info about what happened, do not use the word "they" unless you specify if you are talking about the employer or the unemployment system. What you write is full of what "they" did, and it's very confusing, even on here. It would be confusing to a hearing officer.

Please remove from your mind and your verbalizations all your outrage and insult that the system screwed up, that your employer lied, that your separation date was wrong, that you were not treated well by your employer, etc etc etc. "If they'll lie about that, what else will they lie about?" is not even going into the material, it's such a silly point to make, and makes you sound much less believable yourself.

As I said before, you are not going to convince the appeals officer of anything by your rhetoric. You simply organize your facts, and tell your story in a believable and logical manner.

For some reason, your employer did not get a chance, before the initial decision was made, to protest your claim. So you did not have to do this at the beginning of your claim. But this does not give you moral high ground or right to outrage here. You have to do this now, defend your right to receive benefits, based on the facts of the case.

Even if this was the fault of the unemployment system, and they (the system) made a mistake, as I have said before, when the problem is found, they (the employer) DO definitely have a right to appeal the decision to grant you benefits. They (the employer) always are allowed that chance before the initial decision to present their side of the story as you were when your claim was taken. Then after the first decision, either of you is given the right to this second appeal, which is what you are about to have now.

Forget the stats about how only so many percent of decisions are overturned in the appeals hearing. That is not due to any bias in the system, it is due to the fact that most people who are in a hearing don't understand what they're trying to accomplish, or they go into the appeal without much of a case.

As we said, anybody can appeal, even if they did the very worst thing to get fired, or quit obviously. And those people don't win their cases. And remember, about half the time, it's an employer who is appealing, and they don't win any more often than the claimant does.

You don't get ten more appeals. You would be silly to pursue this if you lose it in appeals and then in the board of review hearing. From that point, there is the option to take the case to civil court, but usually if the appeal is too weak to be overturned when it is before people who know the unemployment laws backward and forward, it's not going to be approved in civil court either. And unemployment claims are just not enough money to hire attorneys and keep beating on it for much longer.

You will be in a very structured situation. I will try to create you a statement, after re reading what I believe to be going on, that will be something similar to what you will need to say to present your story in the most valid and convincing way. Re-read everything the other people have said to you. Realize they're making valid points.

Employers can fire you, for any reason, even with a doctor's statement that you were too ill to work on that particular day. They can do a discharge set up so that if you don't do this and so, you are fired. They will try to convolute this to mean that since you didn't do this and that, you were actually quitting.

And by the way, yes, the unemployment system does realize that employers will do this frequently. You don't need to point this out to them. The employer has a serious financial stake in whether you draw benefits or not. The appeals process is trying to determine which party, either you or the employer is the MOST believable in your version of events, and that either or both of you may be lying. The system doesn't care, pretty much assumes that one side or another will be bending the facts.

One of the determinations the hearing officer will try to use of whether you were fired or quit is "Did you know that your actions would result in......?"

And of course, you did know this. Your argument is that though you knew it would result in your termination, you were too ill to be there, could not speak, and were in no shape to take the certification exam. You explained this to your boss, expressed willingness to take it at another time, and were told this: (at this point, you quote what he said about it being over.)

You tried to give your employer your doctor's statement when you went in. You went in that day because you were instructed to clear out and bring your things back. You were too ill to drive yourself to work (forget listing the specific meds you were on) so had to have someone bring you in to do this.

Your understanding of the situation has always been that you were fired. From talking to former co-workers, you have heard that he has told others that you had been fired.

You did not resign from the job, it was not your intention to resign from the job, and you have never quit or resigned from a job without giving notice to your employer and would not do so.

When you begin your statement, address the wrong date that all this took place that is on the redet letter you have received. Say that this conversation with your employer in which he did, in fact, terminate you, took place on such and such date, not such and such date, as is stated in this information. The actual date you were last on the company's payroll is so and so, and you can document this by your check stubs, which you have here, which shows that you were paid through the week of or day of or whatever.

DO NOT say, "and this is because my employer is a liar, and they lied about this, and everything else in their statement is a dirty lie and I'm going to prove that to you here to day ladies and gentlemen of the jury!"

This is an administrative hearing. You are not there to appeal anything except the facts stated on the decision letter denying you benefits. We assume this states something like, "on such and such date, the claimant did voluntarily end his employment with xxxx company. Because the claimant was found to have quit the job without a valid work related reason, (probably some statues quoted in here somewhere) benefits are denied, and the claimant is determined to be overpaid for any benefits received." Notice how brief and concise this is?

As the appellant party, you'll be asked to speak first, probably, though not set in concrete. You present your statement. The employer then is given the opportunity to speak, IF they show up, remember. And then both of you will be given the opportunity to ask the other party questions. This is formal and structured. It is all recorded. You will both be sworn in. While you are speaking, they are not allowed to interrupt you or object. Same goes for you while they are speaking.

The hearing officer will ask questions of either of you if they have issues that need to be clarified. Then they will dismiss both parties, and in seven to ten days, they will issue another decision, either upholding the former decision, or overturning it.

At this point, either party, either you or the employer can ask for an appeal to the board of review. You are not present at this appeal, all the material is reviewed by a group of people familiar with case law who determine if it appears that the appropriate processes were used and laws were followed.

Do not even begin to argue in this hearing about your overpayment or whether or not you should have to pay it back if you lose your appeal. This is not the venue to deal with a possible overpayment, this is an appeal of the decision not to allow benefits because you quit the job. The hearing officer probably wouldn't allow it, but if you bring it up, a possible overpayment issue is going to cloud your story and weaken the point you should be trying to make.

What is that point? That you did not voluntarily quit the job. You were terminated from the job by so and so on such and such date because you were supposed to be there to take a certification exam, and you were too ill to do so (with a doctor's statement to show this.) You did not leave the job voluntarily, and it was not your intention to do so. Given the circumstances, and your health issue, you were not given any choice in the matter. Period. Stop talking.

You have what I perceive as a pretty good chance to win this appeal if you present it right.

 

[cbg]

And we've all realized who we're dealing with here and looked at the post history, right? So why are we expecting logical thought?