Allowing teenager to decide absent a court order

[2Mistakes]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MS

Let me start by saying that I have no intention of allowing my daughter to choose not to see her mom. This is more out of curiosity. General opinion welcome.

My ex has court-ordered visitation as follows:
- 6 weeks in the summer
- every other Christmas
- every other Thanksgiving
- every other Spring Break (this year is my spring break, which begins on April 10th, when the kids get out of school and ends on April 20th, when they return to school)

My ex emailed me last night that she is going to be in Pensacola the weekend of April 17-19 and would like to have the kids that weekend. Even though this is my spring break year, we will be back from the vacation I am taking them on on Apri. 14th. So I responded and told my ex that was fine, and would she like my wife to meet her 1/2 in Mobile on Friday the 17th. This is how it was being done when she lived in Pensacola. She emailed back that yes, she would appreciate it if my wife could meet her, and that she will email my wife directly so that they can set up time, place, etc. Cool. Those 2 get along really well.

So I told the kids that they were going to mom's that weekend, and 2 younger kids (12 and 6) were very excited. The oldest (15) - not so much.

When the younger 2 went to bed, the oldest came in my room and asked if she could talk to me. She asked me if she had to go to her mom's that weekend, and I told her of course. She said that she really doesn't want to.

I told her that it's not up to her. She told me that she knows what the court order says, and she knows that the court order doesn't say that her mom gets any weekend visitation with them.

Apparently, Princess saw the court order when she came home from school 1 day. I had been sitting at the table, looking over it and got an emergency call from my mom that my dad wa being taken by ambulance to the hospital. I left in a rush, and didn't think about it. That was m,y bad leaving it somewhere that she could see it.

It was her bad for reading it, and I talked to her about privacy and not reading someone's personal papers, even if they are left out.

So anyways, back to the story. Apparently mom and Princess have not been getting along so well when they talk to each other on the phone lately, and (and yes, I know, this is Princess's side of things) Princess tells me that the last time she talked to her mom 2 weeks ago, her mom told her that she was an accident and mistake. That she was the only reason that me and her mom got married, because I knocked her up with Princess, so all of this is Princess's fault. That the fact that ex and I are divorced is Princess's fault because we never would have gotten married if mom hadn't gotten pregnant with her.

I gave Princess my version, which is that her mom and I got married because we loved each other, and that the fact that mom had gotten pregnant with Princess just showed us how much we loved each other. That she is not a mistake, and while the pregnancy may have been unplanned, she is NOT an accident.

So anyways, that's Princess's reason for not wanting to go visit her mom that weekend. And I think I understand (from an emotional viewpoint) why she feels that way. Even before that happened, Princess has had some animosity towards her mom for flitting in and out of their lives for the last 4 years. I think that was the final straw for Princess.

However, I told Princess that while I understand her feeling very hurt by hearing those things, her mom is her mom, and she needs to handle the situation head-on, and not run from it. That obviously her and mom need to sit down together and really talk.

Did I give the right advice here? I guess that's an emotional parenting question, and not legal.

Then I am curious about the legalities of the situation. I know we always tell parents that the kids don't get to choose, that the court order is to be followed.

In this case, however, there is no court order for this visitation? Does that mean that if I chose to let Princess decide (which I'm not) it would be ok?

And in a situation like that, how would a judge view it?

 

[Ohiogal]

Don't let your minor child choose whether or not to have a relationship with the other parent. That is most definitely a PARENTING decision -- i.e. to be decided by the parent. And I agree that Princess SHOULD go. But you should also try to have a discussion with ex regarding whether or not Princess was a "mistake" or "happy accident" in an unemotional (okay limited emotional) way.

As for what you told Princess, that is a good job.

 

[CJane]

I gave Princess my version, which is that her mom and I got married because we loved each other, and that the fact that mom had gotten pregnant with Princess just showed us how much we loved each other. That she is not a mistake, and while the pregnancy may have been unplanned, she is NOT an accident.

K. I gotta say, I HATE this line of reasoning. Just so you know. Getting pregnant does NOT 'show how much we loved each other'. At all. Ever. That might be ok to tell a 6 year old, but not a 15 year old! Pregnancy/sex does NOT =/prove love!

I know that's not what you MEANT, but man, watch it!

Also, please don't tell your younger girls "That boy on the playground only beat you up because he likes you." We spend an awful lot of time telling GROWN WOMEN that if a man loved them he WOULDN'T hit them.

/random rant

Other than that? It's not Mom's weekend. IMO, if Princess doesn't want to go, she shouldn't be made to go. I know, I know. Craptastic parenting. But ya know what? I don't actually care. It's optional for YOU and perhaps you shouldn't have made a unilateral decision that all the kids WOULD be there w/out discussing it with the actual kids.

And, in similar craptastic form, I don't think it's that big of a deal that she read the order. She SHOULD know what it says re: the schedule/etc so that she can keep it straight in her head. My kids 'know what the order says' as far as weekends and holidays and who picks first for summer break which years (in fact, this year, they had to tell ME that I was wrong). No one is suffering from TMI. They don't need to read the actual documents/evidence/whatever, but it's a PARENTING PLAN for gods' sakes. What's in there that would harm their relationship with their Mother?

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Princess can decide not to go to mom's when she is 18. Until then, do NOT give an inch on this one. Now, I would give mom a heads-up that her conversation with Princess may have an impact on Princess' attitude towards her. Why? Because it's the right thing to do, regardless of mom's flighty behaviour of the past 4 years.

 

[2Mistakes]

But you should also try to have a discussion with ex regarding whether or not Princess was a "mistake" or "happy accident" in an unemotional (okay limited emotional) way.

Right now, I don't think I am capable of having that conversation with the ex. Maybe in a few days, but not today.

The anguish, guilt, and betrayal that I saw in my little girl's eyes last night tore my heart wide open. Yeah, she's 15 (and a very mature responsible 15 at that), but in my eyes, she'll always be my little girl. She was my first, and while I don't love her anymore than the other 2, I love all of them in different ways. She has a special place in my heart that no one else could replace. She taught me the meaning of being unselfish. She taught me the meaning of unconditional love. She taught me what it feels like to know that you would give your life for another human being. She taught me how to be a dad.

And it hurts so much to know that she is hurting.

I could throttle her mom right now, which is why I think I need to let the emotions of it die down before I approach her mom about it.

And it's true that her mom and I wouldn't have gotten married had mom not gotten pregnant. Well, I guess I can't say that, but we wouldn't have gotten married when we did. We were young and foolish. We were 18 when mom got pregnant.

But when I married her mom, I truly did it out of love. Her mom and I were married for 10 years. We gave it a good run.

The only reason it ended was because I caught the ex in OUR bed, banging my now ex best friend. The kids don't know that, and I won't tell them that. For years, the ex has told the kids that the reason we are divorced is because I left her. She forgets to mention that I left her because I caught her banging my best friend in our bed.

As for what you told Princess, that is a good job.

Thanks, I needed to hear that. My wife has been at the hospital with her 88 year old grandmother who fell out of her wheelchair yesterday and is now brain-dead. My wife's mom now has to decide whether to keep her on life support or to pull the plug, and my wife is trying to be supportive and help her mom through that. So I didn't want to add any more emotional stuff to my wife's plate right now. She has enough.

I'm sorry if this is a venting, big baby thread. I know this is LEGAL advice forum, but you guys also give great parenting advice, too.

 

[wileybunch]

Your advice to Princess to work out things with her mom was spot on. Doesn't mean mom will listen, change, etc., but Princess needs to learn how to communicate with someone she's having a relationship when things go off track and not run from it.

But, if this is an extra weekend, ie. "off the books", no, I would not force her to go. If this is on the books ie. trading this year for next, then she would not get a say.

If it's off the books, then I would handle it as telling Mom that yes she can have the time if she wants it and it would be between she and the kids if they go, she'd need to ask them directly. I would not be in the middle as far as that goes.

 

[wileybunch]

K. I gotta say, I HATE this line of reasoning. Just so you know. Getting pregnant does NOT 'show how much we loved each other'. At all. Ever. That might be ok to tell a 6 year old, but not a 15 year old! Pregnancy/sex does NOT =/prove love!

I know that's not what you MEANT, but man, watch it!

I TOTALLY agree. And, in fact, what a paradox. Something that can be only completely self indulgent and carnal for some (sex) can produce the greatest responsibility for the indulgers (a child together to provide for).

 

[2Mistakes]

I TOTALLY agree. And, in fact, what a paradox. Something that can be only completely self indulgent and carnal for some (sex) can produce the greatest responsibility for the indulgers (a child together to provide for).

I agree with what Cjane said about the whole sex thing, too. I hadn't thought about it like that. I'm sure I had that deer-caught-in-the-headlights-look, and I just said the 1st thing I could think of to make Princess feel better.

Crap, now I need to have another sex talk with her, and explain a little better that sex + unexpected pregnancy DOES NOT = love.

Gosh, raising a teenager daughter is sometimes not very much fun. And I've got it better than most, because Princess really does have her head on straight for the most part. 3 more years to go!

I'm going to have to give the whole forcing her to go thing some very deep thought. Everyone has made some really good points, both for and against.

The younger 2 are no question. They are excited and want to go. I will never deny the kids time with their mom when she makes time for them.

I'm thinking that if I do choose to allow Princess to sit this one out, I need to have her tell her mom. Maybe something along the lines of, "Mom, dad told me that you are going to be in town for the weekend and want to see us. Pee-Wee and Short-Stuff are very excited and will be there. After the last conversation you and I had, I don't want to see you right now."

I don't want her to fall into a passive-aggresive pattern with her mom. She needs to be able to stand up for herself. By simply ignoring the situation, she will just be delaying the inevitable. Mom has court-ordered visitation for 6 weeks starting in May, and Princess has NO choice about that one.

Maybe Princess should sit this one out, if that's her choice, and maybe she and mom can talk about all this when she goes for the summer.

I just really don't know.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

When is the last time that the girls' saw their mom?

Now, remember that YOUR job as CP is to foster a relationship between the children and the NCP. I understand the feelings and reasoning with not having 15 yo go, but ... we also must teach our children that they have to deal with hurts and not bury them.

 

[2Mistakes]

When is the last time that the girls' saw their mom?

Now, remember that YOUR job as CP is to foster a relationship between the children and the NCP. I understand the feelings and reasoning with not having 15 yo go, but ... we also must teach our children that they have to deal with hurts and not bury them.

All 3 of the kids (2 girls, 1 boy) saw their mom at Christmas. She told them over Christmas break that she was staying in Pensacola permanently and would be getting them every other weekend, which I whole-heartedly agreed with.

One week later she was in MI, hadn't told the kids, and emailed my wife that she had moved to MI and to let the kids know.

I know I have a responsibility to foster their relationship, and I try. But mom dug her own hole with the oldest by telling her those things.

Where does my duty to foster a relationship and my daughter's right to not have to listen to that kind of crap from her mom meet?

I just very confused with this whole situation. I'm very torn. My daughter's word to me really made an impact.

She told me, "I'm not a dog. I'm a human being with feelings. And mom really hurt my feelings."

 

[2Mistakes]

And Ginny, I do agree that we need to teach our kids to deal with hurts and not run from it. I told my daughter that exact thing.

Then again when her first boyfriend dumped her last month, I also told her that daddy is the only man who will never break her heart. I'm such a tard.

I actually have to go to the attorney's office now. Not about this case, but to pick up a contingency contract to bring home to my wife for a case he's going to handle for her.

Would it be wise to discuss the legalities of this situation with him?

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Legally, you don't have to do anything more than the court order. But, it can come back and bite you in the arse.

Nothing says that you can't talk about the situation with the X. Maybe the X will agree for kiddo not to go. Natural consequences.

 

[penelope10]

As far as the Princess being a mistake, she was unplanned, and not a mistake. I don't even know how the ex and she would have even gotten into that conversation. I'm 51 years old, and back in the day, there simply weren't that many birth control options for parents. I'd say that probably as many as 90% of those my age bracket could be considered "mistakes" in the sense that we came from unplanned pregnancies.

People back then who truly did not want, or could not afford to raise these children put them up for adoption. So to be the result of an unplanned pregnancy was really not that big of a deal when I was growing up. Heck there is 11 years between my sister and myself. I once asked my Mom why I didn't have more brothers and sisters and she told me that the Docs thought she couldn't have any more kiddos after my Sister. She and my Dad were very excited when she found out she was pregnant with me.

I would not have daughter talk to Mom about this. I'd send her to Mom's, but after I spoke with Mom about watching her wording when she's talking to Princess in areas like this. She might not have thought through how she explained things to your daughter and how hurtful this could be to a teenager's ego.

As far as the decree goes, my child knows what weekends she is to go to Dad's. She has not read the decree itself. I really don't think she needs to know the full details. Her father and I were the one's that divorced, not she and her father (if that makes sense). I really don't have a problem with you explaining that the decree is something that is private and not for her eyes.

Not saying that other folks are wrong that have a different opinion from me, it's a matter of choice IMO.

 

[2Mistakes]

Well it's a moot point, as mom just emailed my wife and said that Princess doesn't need to come that weekend.

Her words were, "I'm sure Princess has stuff she wants to do with friends that weekend, so she doesn't need to come."

It was almost funny, because my wife still doesn't know all the drama. She was checking her email on her iPhone at the hospital and got that email, and called me telling me that ex said Princess didn't need to come and probably already had plans with friends. I just told my wife that there is more to it, but she needs to worry about her mom and grandma, and I'll tell her about it when that all settles down.

I'm guessing mom doesn't know that I know what went on.

So now I have 2 passive-aggressive babies on my hands (Princess and ex), both trying to hide from each other.

I really don't want to be in the middle of this. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

Well it's a moot point, as mom just emailed my wife and said that Princess doesn't need to come that weekend.

Her words were, "I'm sure Princess has stuff she wants to do with friends that weekend, so she doesn't need to come."

It was almost funny, because my wife still doesn't know all the drama. She was checking her email on her iPhone at the hospital and got that email, and called me telling me that ex said Princess didn't need to come and probably already had plans with friends. I just told my wife that there is more to it, but she needs to worry about her mom and grandma, and I'll tell her about it when that all settles down.

I'm guessing mom doesn't know that I know what went on.

So now I have 2 passive-aggressive babies on my hands (Princess and ex), both trying to hide from each other.

I really don't want to be in the middle of this. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

I would have Princess practice what she wants to say to either your or the wife. The best thing you can do is help her not bury her feelings or ignore them, cuz it won't get better.