Allowing teenager to decide absent a court order

[penelope10]

Well it's a moot point, as mom just emailed my wife and said that Princess doesn't need to come that weekend.

Her words were, "I'm sure Princess has stuff she wants to do with friends that weekend, so she doesn't need to come."

It was almost funny, because my wife still doesn't know all the drama. She was checking her email on her iPhone at the hospital and got that email, and called me telling me that ex said Princess didn't need to come and probably already had plans with friends. I just told my wife that there is more to it, but she needs to worry about her mom and grandma, and I'll tell her about it when that all settles down.

I'm guessing mom doesn't know that I know what went on.

So now I have 2 passive-aggressive babies on my hands (Princess and ex), both trying to hide from each other.

I really don't want to be in the middle of this. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

Well at 15 girls can certainly be hormonal and hear what they want to hear out of a conversation. Of course, your ex is real pip and not the most thoughtful, to say the least, of people. Unfortunately, until kiddo is at least 18 you'll probably have to deal with some more of the B.S.

The good news is that they do grow up. Mom and daughter will have to deal with one another directly---you'll be out of the middle. Had to go through this with my eldest. I lend her a sympathetic ear when needed and let her handle things herself. So there is light at the end of the tunnel.....

 

[janM]

Yeah, she's 15 (and a very mature responsible 15 at that), but in my eyes, she'll always be my little girl. She was my first, and while I don't love her anymore than the other 2, I love all of them in different ways. She has a special place in my heart that no one else could replace. She taught me the meaning of being unselfish. She taught me the meaning of unconditional love. She taught me what it feels like to know that you would give your life for another human being. She taught me how to be a dad.

When you sit down with her to continue your discussion about sex/babies/love, maybe you should tell her this too. I bet she'd love to hear it. That even though you had her before you had planned, all of the above is true.

I'd say that probably as many as 90% of those my age bracket could be considered "mistakes" in the sense that we came from unplanned pregnancies.

I was born in the 50's, and I came 8 years after the youngest. I NEVER felt like I was an "oops", and didn't even realize that may have been the case till much later in life. I was loved just as much as the older ones.

 

[wileybunch]

Where does my duty to foster a relationship and my daughter's right to not have to listen to that kind of crap from her mom meet?

I just very confused with this whole situation. I'm very torn. My daughter's word to me really made an impact.

She told me, "I'm not a dog. I'm a human being with feelings. And mom really hurt my feelings."

"It sounds like you were very hurt by what happened. I'm sorry." You can listen reflectively like that and let your DD know her feelings were heard and understood without getting into the middle of it. You can even listen and show her that she was heard and understood even if you DON'T agree with her (should that happen) and you can withhold any advice unless you feel there's some worthwhile giving AND you have permission from your DD to give advice ie. you can tack on to the above ... "Are you interested in discussing ways to bring this up with your mom so you can talk about your feelings with her?" and let her decide if she wants that from you at that time or not.

I think you're doing just fine. The sex=love comment wasn't ideal, but so what? It's not like you have one conversation about sex and love with your kids and this comment is not going to cement in her brain if all other talks and values modeled don't say this same thing.

 

[stealth2]

You did well, 2M.

However, as the mother of a 15yo girl, I can tell you that sometimes she gets me to the point where I say things I likely shouldn't. It can be really, really hard to bite your tongue. I don't think, though, that I could ever get to that line. Or, to such a hurtful line.

Since Mom has said that she can skip the visit, I'd likely let her decide to sit this one out if she wanted to. But... I would encourage Mom & 15yo to get together in the near future on their own and talk. Just the two of them.

 

[CJane]

When I was 12-ish, my Mom said "When I got pregnant with you, it was the last thing in the world that I wanted. I was terribly sick the whole time, I wasn't happy in my marriage, I had two babies still in diapers, and it was horrible."

What I heard was "I wish you'd never been born, and if you hadn't been, I wouldn't have stayed married to your dad and been miserable for as long as I was"

Yeah, not even close to the same thing.

Make sure your daughter has her hormonal filter off before she has a conversation with her Mom because it's entirely possible that what she HEARD and what was SAID aren't the same thing.

 

[LdiJ]

You did well, 2M.

However, as the mother of a 15yo girl, I can tell you that sometimes she gets me to the point where I say things I likely shouldn't. It can be really, really hard to bite your tongue. I don't think, though, that I could ever get to that line. Or, to such a hurtful line.

Since Mom has said that she can skip the visit, I'd likely let her decide to sit this one out if she wanted to. But... I would encourage Mom & 15yo to get together in the near future on their own and talk. Just the two of them.

I have to agree with the bolded, absolutely. 15 is about the age where they often ask really hard questions, and expect honest answers and it can often be very difficult to give them the right responses, without them looking you in the eye and saying "BS".

I can remember my daughter specifically asking me for exactly the reason why her dad and I got divorced, and refusing to be satisfied with platitudes or what she termed "BS". She wanted the TRUTH. She didn't get the full truth.

She is now 21 and part of me thinks that I seriously messed up by not giving her the truth. She has made some really poor choices in men in her life, and part of me thinks that if I had been more honest with her back then, that perhaps she wouldn't have made some of those choices.

She knew and knows everything that I like and admire about her father, and knows that he and I are still close friends. What she doesn't know is the things that I don't like about her father, and why we got divorced, and why those things made me choose to be independent in my life rather than involving another man.

So...I followed the "rules" as this forum sees them to be, and I am not sure that I made the right choice. Maybe she would have been better off if I had emphasized that we love and like daddy, and have fun with daddy, but we don't admire his "choices".

 

[CJane]

I have to agree with the bolded, absolutely. 15 is about the age where they often ask really hard questions, and expect honest answers and it can often be very difficult to give them the right responses, without them looking you in the eye and saying "BS".

I can remember my daughter specifically asking me for exactly the reason why her dad and I got divorced, and refusing to be satisfied with platitudes or what she termed "BS". She wanted the TRUTH. She didn't get the full truth.

She is now 21 and part of me thinks that I seriously messed up by not giving her the truth. She has made some really poor choices in men in her life, and part of me thinks that if I had been more honest with her back then, that perhaps she wouldn't have made some of those choices.

She knew and knows everything that I like and admire about her father, and knows that he and I are still close friends. What she doesn't know is the things that I don't like about her father, and why we got divorced, and why those things made me choose to be independent in my life rather than involving another man.

So...I followed the "rules" as this forum sees them to be, and I am not sure that I made the right choice. Maybe she would have been better off if I had emphasized that we love and like daddy, and have fun with daddy, but we don't admire his "choices".

I think, as parents, we can second guess ourselves til the cows come home. You have to make those spur of the moment choices and you don't get to go back and change them. It totally sucks.

But ya know, sometimes there ISN'T a 'big thing' that leads to divorce. It might be a billion small things. It might be as simple as 'it wasn't working for a hundred reasons and there wasn't any middle ground to meet on'. To a kid those sound like BS answers. But to a grown-up, sometimes it IS the truth.

 

[LdiJ]

I think, as parents, we can second guess ourselves til the cows come home. You have to make those spur of the moment choices and you don't get to go back and change them. It totally sucks.

But ya know, sometimes there ISN'T a 'big thing' that leads to divorce. It might be a billion small things. It might be as simple as 'it wasn't working for a hundred reasons and there wasn't any middle ground to meet on'. To a kid those sound like BS answers. But to a grown-up, sometimes it IS the truth.

I don't disagree at all about the fact that sometimes it isn't a "big thing" that leads to a divorce.

However, in my opinion that is when its easiest to tell the kids the truth...and when presented properly, the easiest for the kids to understand. Our kids can tell when we are being honest, and when we are BSing them...not when they are "littles" but when they are older.

 

[stealth2]

I have to agree with the bolded, absolutely. 15 is about the age where they often ask really hard questions, and expect honest answers and it can often be very difficult to give them the right responses, without them looking you in the eye and saying "BS".

Sometimes it isn't even about the "hard" questions. Sometimes it's the 15yo being, well... a 15yo. It can be ever so hard to bite your tongue when you've (say) just finished a long day at a less than ideal job that doesn't pay well, find a sink full of dishes, unfed pets, undone homework, two teens lounging on the sofas watching some less than enlightening show on VH1, and then one of them starts shrieking at you for absolutely no reason. Sometimes, it releases the inner 15yo in a parent. It's called being human. But, then it is up to the adult to pull it back together and make it right again. Not that I've ever been in this situation.

 

[wileybunch]

I don't disagree at all about the fact that sometimes it isn't a "big thing" that leads to a divorce.

However, in my opinion that is when its easiest to tell the kids the truth...and when presented properly, the easiest for the kids to understand. Our kids can tell when we are being honest, and when we are BSing them...not when they are "littles" but when they are older.

I do see your point on "missing out" on some teaching moments if we don't talk about our own relationship failures, but I really don't think it's all or nothing that it has to be our own in its full glory or we are depriving them of things they need to know.

The truth is the truth. It doesn't have to be YOUR truth to BE and RESONATE as truth to an adolescent. Speak frankly about the challenges of marriage and relationships, but you don't have to necessarily speak in the first person about all such things for the truth to be understood by a child. And, it's also possible to speak the truth about our relationships to some degree without crucifying the other. How many knew the other person was not the right one for us, but didn't have the wherewithal to stop the process because we were afraid of hurting the other person's feelings, for example? That's a very personal experience that many people have that our children can learn from (and I'm thinking especially girls, but maybe that is some gender bias on my part).

I also know when my older girls went into adulthood, I was able to be more frank with them, but that was gravy and it was more because they experienced their own issues with their father and had heard things from him that they didn't think were true and those kinds of things could be discussed then. What would be hard for me is if an ex is actively saying things, trying to turn the kids against the parent or just trying to cover their own butt, and you have to choose which road to go down with that since doing your own PR can't be your highest priority, so sometimes the reality is you have to let the kids see some things for themselves and sometimes you're not even aware of what an ex might be saying about you from their end.

 

[2Mistakes]

I totally understand about saying something to your kids that you shouldn't in a moment of anger. Hell, I did it just this morning.

I'm a grouch by nature in the morning, but after a night of not-so-great sleep (allergies already acting up), I was particularly grouchy this morning.

And of course the kids pick this morning to walk around with their heads in their asses and miss the school bus.

And in my anger and irritation, I dropped the F-bomb at them. I'll be the first to admit that I have a potty mouth, but I do make a conscience effort not to use the F-word around them, and to never use it directed AT them. I apologized in the car on the way to school.

So, I have a little more info about the situation between Princess and mom. I thought about the whole sex = love thing, and I really wanted to clarify that with her. So last night I went in her room and said, "Hey Punkin, how ya feeling?" In RL, Punkin is my nickname for her, because when she was little, she looked like Punky Brewster, and I always called her my little Punk. Somewhere along the way, the -in got added, and she's always been Punkin.

So anyways, she said, "I'm feeling ok, I guess." Here's how the rest of the convo went.

Me: "Look, when we were talking the other night, I think I might have explained the whole sex/love thing pretty badly, and I wanted to clarify some things with you."

Punkin: "Oh God, Dad, another sex talk?"

Me: "Well, I just want to make sure that you are informed correctly. So here's the thing. I think the way I explained about me and your mom getting pregnant and getting married might have sounded like sex + an unplanned pregnancy = love. And it doesn't. I loved your mom before she got pregnant with you. I had planned to marry your mom before she got pregnant. The fact that she got pregnant just moved that up a little. But sex does not equal love. Sex is a huge responsibility both physically and emotionally. It can have life-long effects.

I used to be a teenage boy, so I know that at some point, some nasty little boy is going to tell you that if you love him, you'll give him some. But the truth is that if that boy really loves you and cares about you, he won't say that, and he won't pressure you to do something that you aren't ready for.

Please don't ever give in to that pressure. Just because you love (or think) that you love someone doesn't mean that you have to sleep with them. And just because you sleep with someone does not mean that you love them.

I'm going to shoot straight with you. Things didn't exactly happen with your mom the way I planned. But, I NEVER, for 1 second regretted having you. You taught me things that I needed to know. You taught me the meaning of unconditional love. You taught me what it feels like to know that I would give my life for another human being. You taught me how to be a dad.

So while sleeping with your mom and having an unplanned pregnancy worked out well for me, I'm the exception to the rule. And trust me, it wasn't always easy. It wasn't all roses and butterflies. Mistakes were made along the way. There were some really hard times.

My point is, don't do something that you aren't ready for. And while I sometimes get all Daddish on you, you can always talk to me about this stuff. I promise I won't freak out. I want you to come to me BEFORE you do anything, so that we can talk about it, and I can help you make good, healthy decisions. And so that in the event you decide to do what you want to do anyways, we can make sure that you are protected and responsible."

So we had a bit of a tearful moment, and then she said, "Dad, I love you. I really do. But if I need to talk to someone about sex, I think I'm going to talk to K (step-mom.)" I told her that was fine, as long as she talked to 1 of us, and she promised that she would.

God, I know this is turning into a bookish post, but it was a looonnnngggg, conversation. And since all of ya'll gave me such good advice, I want you to know how this saga ends.

So then I told her that I had gotten an email from her mom saying that she knew Punkin probably had stuff she'd want to do with her friends that weekend and didn't have to go.

Punkin sighed in relief and said, "Good. Because I don't want to see or talk to her." I told her that I understand that, but that at some point she's going to have to. That she can't hide from her problems, and she can't hide from her mom. That her and mom are both going to have to be big girls and hash things out. She said, "Maybe 1 day, Dad, but not today, and not tomorrow, and not even next week."

So I told her I was a little curious about how things with her mom had transpired to get to this point, and asked if she wanted to talk about it a little more. I was thinking about what CJane had said about maybe Punkin heard something much worse than what was actually said. So here's how that convo went:

Punkin: "Well, for the last couple of years, I haven't really felt close to mom. She's never around. She chose Mr. B (mom's boyfriend) over us. She only wants us in her life when it's convenient for her. I've tried acting like everything is normal when I talk to her or see her, but that game is getting old. I get so tired when I have to pretend like me and mom have the same relationship we used to have. We just don't.

So lately when I talk to her, I haven't really had much to say. I'm not comfortable talking to her about my friends and boys and all that. She doesn't know my friends. So I really haven't had much to say.

So the last time I talked to her, she asked me what my deal was. She wanted to know why I don't tell her more. She said she was mad that I hadn't told her that J broke up with me. And I decided to just be honest.

And I told her the reason I don't tell her more about my life is because I don't feel close to her anymore. That she has chosen her great new life over me and Pee-Wee and Short-Stuff, and that I'm fine with that, but she can't expect things to just be normal. That's when she said all stuff to me."

So at that point I asked her if it was possible that maybe mom didn't say it quite so harshly, and because Punkin's feelings are so hurt, that maybe Punkin heard it more harshly than it was actually said.

And she said, "No Dad, she said it exactly how I told you. She blamed me for everything that has gone wrong between her and you, and without actually saying the words implied that she wished I had never been born."

So I told her I was sorry that she was so hurt. And that it sounds like mom was angry, probably even most at herself, and lashed out. I explained that that doesn't make it right, though, and that this is a good lesson for Punkin about how words spoken in anger can really hurt someone.

And I told her again that her and mom are going to have to sit down and talk it out at some point, that both of them can't hide from each other for the rest of their lives.

She said, "I know Dad. I'm just not ready for that. Yet."

So then we switched to everyday life and talked about school, friends, etc. And she told me something that made me so incredibly proud of her. And showed me that she really does GET IT.

She told me there's this really cute guy at school who keeps asking her out. I asked her if she's going to go out with him, and she said no, because he has a reputation of being a player and he only goes out with girls who give it up to all the guys, and if she went out with him, everyone would think SHE'S that kind of girl, and she's better than that.

I swear, my heart burst with pride at that moment. That's my sweet, SMART, baby girl!

 

[Ohiogal]

Good for you 2M.

 

[wileybunch]

Man, I lost it just reading your monologue ... and then there was still more to come! Good job, Dad.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

It does make it easier when a line of communication is open with teenagers.

 

[2Mistakes]

It does make it easier when a line of communication is open with teenagers.

Definately.

And I guess I can understand her not wanting to come to me and say, "Hey Pops, there's this dude, and I'm thinking about banging him. Wanna discuss?"

Even though I promised not to freak out, it'd be a stretch.

So if she wants to talk to SM about that kind of stuff, cool. I trust me wife to lead her in the right direction.

Funny story -

About a year ago, when Punkin was 14, my wife and Punkin were in the car, on the interstate, when Punkin asked my wife what a bj was.

My wife said she damn near hit the guardrail, and did spit coke all over her lap. It was just so out of the blue. One minute they were listening to the radio, and the next Punkin pops out with, "What's a BJ?" But said the whole word.

So wife explained what that meant, and Punkin was like, "EWWWWW, GROSS! Why would someone want to do that? That is just nasty. They PEE outta that!"

My wife is sarcastic by nature, and when she related the story to me later that night, she asked me, "Gee, do you think I should have told Punkin that a BJ is what makes you the MOST popular girl in school?" This was said strictly in jest of course, but I laughed my butt off.