An instant oil change place totaled our car - options?

[Zigner]

Sue the bad guys in small claims court for the value of a rebuilt engine. You're only out a small amount and you might win.

Good luck.

 

[somecallmejim]

You forgot to mention that they will need to explain why they drove around for at least a couple of months KNOWING there was a problem.

Thing is, we didn't know there was a problem until the initial engine damage occurred. And even at that time, we had no clue that there was a problem, only that there was a leak. I grew up in a lower middle class family. My first car was a Reliant K. My next one was a 30 year old F-150. Finally after I was really established I got myself a nice 15 year old Grand Marquis.

My point is that I've lived with oil leaks most of my life, and I've driven cars with leaks for years and years, just keeping tabs on the oil. It's not been until the last 4 or 5 years that we've had the income to afford genuinely reliable transportation that doesn't leave stains on my friends' driveways. And speaking of driveways, we have a gravel driveway on a gravel alley, so even if the car was leaking like a sieve, our only way to know would be to regularly check the oil. There was never a need to do so with this vehicle because it never leaked.

Bottom line, after the engine damage, we kept driving the car because we had no other choice. My wife works in the next town over, and I'm driving all over this town looking for work or temp jobs on a daily basis. We needed both cars. Being used to leaky cars from my past, I made a habit of checking the oil religiously after the engine damage, in hopes of preserving the car as long as we could.

 

[somecallmejim]

Sue the bad guys in small claims court for the value of a rebuilt engine. You're only out a small amount and you might win.

Good luck.

Thing is, I'd really rather not sue anyone. Sure they did the damage, and I want them to pay for what they caused. But mostly I just want to know whether this has any merit whatsoever if I wanted to take it that far. That way, when I walk into their shop, plop the damaged oil filter on the manager's desk, and ask him what they can do about this, I know sort of what my options will be if he tries to balk at me.

To me, a lawsuit is a lot of mess, and if I need to do it as a last resort, I will, but all I really want is for our two car family to have two cars, just like we did the day we took our van into be fixed.

 

[Zigner]

Thing is, I'd really rather not sue anyone. Sure they did the damage, and I want them to pay for what they caused. But mostly I just want to know whether this has any merit whatsoever if I wanted to take it that far. That way, when I walk into their shop, plop the damaged oil filter on the manager's desk, and ask him what they can do about this, I know sort of what my options will be if he tries to balk at me.

To me, a lawsuit is a lot of mess, and if I need to do it as a last resort, I will, but all I really want is for our two car family to have two cars, just like we did the day we took our van into be fixed.

You need to talk to the shop and ask them to repair your vehicle. If they do, then you're good. If they don't, then you sue.

 

[xylene]

First, the car wasn't a clunker with a foot in the grave, as someone posited. It's a 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport with about every option they had. The blue book for our specific van in good condition is a bit over $7000. The mechanic actually thought that the reason the alternator went out was due to the incessant vibration of the motor from the damage from no oil.

That vehicle does not have even close to 7 grand KBB, even in excellent condition.

You neglected to include the mileage.

If this minivan had over 100k on it, I would say that the engine was at least 75% used up. Probably more.

The oil change people don't owe you a replacement van.

 

[somecallmejim]

That vehicle does not have even close to 7 grand KBB, even in excellent condition.

You neglected to include the mileage.

If this minivan had over 100k on it, I would say that the engine was at least 75% used up. Probably more.

The oil change people don't owe you a replacement van.

Sorry xylene, but I disagree, or at least in part. I just looked it up. You're right that I don't hit the $7k mark. Admittedly the last time I looked up the value was a year ago, so it's natural that it's dropped in value since then, but with all the options that our car has, the private party good condition still puts it at $6595. Our van is probably closer to the excellent condition (aside from the motor), Which comes in around $6965. So we're arguing over pennies here.

Sure, the van has 120,000 miles on it, but why does that matter? Again, I grew up in a poorer family than most. I've owned two cars in my past with over 200,000 miles on them. My dad drove his little Honda Prelude until 375,000 miles, and then the only reason we scrapped it was because the body was rusting to pieces - the motor still ran like a top. So I find it incredibly thick-headed that someone would assume that just because a car is past 100,000 miles that it's got no value. Heck, our other van is a very similar 2002 Ford minivan that's got 60,000 more miles on it than this one does, and it's still going strong. Maybe some people drive their cars into the ground and need replacements every 90,000 miles, but we take good care of our vehicles, and the previous owner, as I mentioned was meticulous to the point of OCD.

And again, I'm not out to take these guys to the cleaners. I don't want to walk away from this deal with a brand new 2011 model vehicle. I would be VERY happy if in the end we had what we started with, a very reliable 8-1/2 year old van with a little over 100k miles on it. If they wanted to pay to have the motor on our current van rebuilt, I'd be great with that. The only reason I ask about replacing the whole van is because a new motor is 3/4 of the vehicle's current value, which at least by most insurance standards, makes the vehicle "totaled".

 

[Kiawah]

So today the car totally died, and this is bad

What is now wrong with the car? The fact that it "died", could be caused by any number of things, unrelated or possibly related to running low on oil.

What is the cost to repair, this new problem? And what is the proof that this new problem was caused by running low on oil? You could have a bad sensor or computer taken out by the alternator problem.

Isn't the oil filter on this engine, mounted down on the front side of the engine where it is visible? I had a minivan for a number of years, and trying to remember.

The mechanic actually thought that the reason the alternator went out was due to the incessant vibration of the motor from the damage from no oil.

Interesting concept!

 

[somecallmejim]

What is now wrong with the car? The fact that it "died", could be caused by any number of things, unrelated or possibly related to running low on oil.

It's definitely the end result of the oil-less damage. I have *some* mechanical know-how (my dad was a mechanic, and some of it stuck), and when it's running (it will run, but just barely) you can tell that the bearing that slipped when the oil was gone has completely turned in there, which is what's causing all of our issues. My mechanic agrees, this was the direct cause from the oil issue.

What is the cost to repair, this new problem? And what is the proof that this new problem was caused by running low on oil? You could have a bad sensor or computer taken out by the alternator problem.

The engine literally is shaking inside the engine compartment. It's not a bad sensor. A mechanic I know said the only repair option is a new motor, a la $4000. Not a cheap or reasonable fix on a car that blue books for right around $7000

Isn't the oil filter on this engine, mounted down on the front side of the engine where it is visible? I had a minivan for a number of years, and trying to remember.

In fact, it is right in front. However, our van has the sport package, which makes it a little lower to the ground, and I'm a little husky (okay, I'm right out obese), so without a jack, I can't do much more than look at the leading face of the filter. And because the damage to the filter was on the side facing the back of the engine and up a bit, it's invisible to someone who is just looking under the car.

And xylene, I'm really sorry to keep harping on this, but your comments about the car having no worth because it's a little older and by your (in my opinion, hubris tainted -no offense) "estimation" that the car is beyond 75% done, I have to put it another way.

Let's say you entrusted a nursing home to care for your elderly grandmother. In their care, they accidentally make a mistake, and she dies directly because of it. Do you just let it go because she's old, and well past 75% of her life is over? No way! If you had half a soul in your body, you would hold that nursing home liable, and make them pay, regardless of whether she would have only lived another month if they hadn't made the mistake. When people do a misdeed, there must be consequences. So what if I'm not some trust fund baby who drives a 2011 Mercedes? I'm not trying to get a new car here. I'd be perfectly happy to get another older vehicle. That's all I'm looking for, is for the wrongdoer to pay.

And to everyone, thanks for letting me flesh out my thoughts. I'm really not trying to be defensive or hostile. I want to have the tough questions asked here, so if this has to go to a court, I am prepared to answer them. This is NOT a fun situation, and I greatly appreciate your input, for or against my case.

Thanks!

 

[Kiawah]

you can tell that the bearing that slipped when the oil was gone has completely turned in there, which is what's causing all of our issues. My mechanic agrees, this was the direct cause from the oil issue.

I don't know what you mean by 'a bearing slipped', and 'turned in there', which is causing all of the issues. What bearing is it that you think is the problem? Crankshaft main, camshaft, rod bearing, ??? And what is it that you think that bearing has done? What's the cost to replace that bearing? Unless you've had some catastrophic situation like a piston rod broke and poked thru the block, there's a reasonably good chance the engine can be fixed. If the problem is in the head, don't even have to dig deep into the engine.

Unless you have a competent trained unbiased mechanic diagnose your problem and take your engine apart if necessary, I believe you will be very hard pressed to prove what the problem now is. You have current symptoms that could be caused by many things, and you've leaped to a conclusion that the problem must be a bearing.

Secondly, I think you'll be hard pressed to also prove that IF there is a bearing problem, that it was caused by this lack of oil, and the lack of oil was caused by the oil filter and not by regular oil consumption of a 120K mile engine, or done at a previous low oil situation.

 

[somecallmejim]

I don't know what you mean by 'a bearing slipped', and 'turned in there', which is causing all of the issues. What bearing is it that you think is the problem? Crankshaft main, camshaft, rod bearing, ??? And what is it that you think that bearing has done? What's the cost to replace that bearing?

Unless you have a competent trained unbiased mechanic diagnose your problem and take your engine apart if necessary, I believe you will be very hard pressed to prove what the problem now is. You have current symptoms that could be caused by many things, and you've leaped to a conclusion that the problem must be a bearing.

It's not so much what *I* think (and even if it were, what I think holds some weight, as I did grow up in my dad's repair shop), but what my mechanic, who is as unbiased as someone you pay to work on your car can be. In his opinion, without totally tearing apart the engine, the symptoms make it look like a camshaft bearing that slipped when the oil ran dry. I spoke to him again after the car completely died (well, it didn't completely die - you can drive it at about 30mph, and the shudder has greatly amplified) and in his expert, ASE certified opinion, the cam bearing probably went from being a little off to being completely reversed of where it's supposed to be. My mechanic also pointed out that with the positioning of the engine, the only way to replace it would be to take the engine out and rebuild the bottom half, which is $2k to $3k, depending on how bad it is when he opens it up. Of course, for very little more than that, he could just swap the motor out altogether. But considering that just to be able to crack the engine open enough to look at the problem to see what's wrong would be a $500 job, I'm not willing to throw that sort of money into the car if I don't feel confident I could recoup it.

Secondly, I think you'll be hard pressed to also prove that IF there is a bearing problem, that it was caused by this lack of oil, and the lack of oil was caused by the oil filter and not by regular oil consumption of a 120K mile engine, or done at a previous low oil situation.

Not really. Again, the problems started the day the vehicle was driven without oil. The odds of some other, totally unrelated problem developing on the same exact day the car was driven without oil are so astronomical that I wouldn't begin to consider them. Further, both my mechanic that has serviced the car since the problem and another mechanic friend of mine both agree that the oil issue caused this.

As far as the consumption thing goes, this car didn't burn oil, period. The previous owner was about as OCD as you can get. He even kept the records of his car washes. When we bought it, it was pretty much like new. I never had to add oil between changes, and the dipstick always read full when the oil was changed every three months. It was in exceptional condition. That's why the thing ran out of oil, it never burned or leaked oil, so we just never needed to check it between changes.

Bottom line, I have done more than my due diligence on the cause of the damage. I'm not worried at all about being able to link the cause of the damage to the leaking oil filter. This isn't the case of some dudley inept guy who read the term bearing in a book and got it in his head; besides my own past with cars, I have at least two mechanics who agree with me on this, and I'm pretty sure that any mechanic I have take a look at the car would come to the same conclusion. So I'm not worried about that. My worries are more over the legal end of this, and if there's even a way this case could stand if need be.

Thanks for your concern, but as far this case would go in a court, I think you may be barking up the wrong tree.

Thanks again.

 

[ecmst12]

KBB is NOT an accurate assessment of vehicle value. Would YOU pay $7000 for your car? I sure wouldn't, nor would an insurance company.

 

[Kiawah]

the problems started the day the vehicle was driven without oil

Did your low oil pressure light not warn you, not to drive without enough oil pressure?

Light never came on?
Didn't notice the light?
Ignored the light and kept driving the 35 miles to work?


And which engine do you have in the vehicle, 4 or 6 cylinder ?

 

[InsaneJane]

So they installed a defective filter that leaked and eventually caused the engine to spin a beering. Spinning a beering is a side effect of suficient loss of oil. The standard repair is to replace the bottom half of the engine.
Unfortunately, it's a PIA and expensive on that model.

There is little question that the oil filter failed, leaked a lot of oil and caused the engine failure. The question is; Who is liable?

If the oil filter failed, leaked enough oil to cause the damage, then the manufacturer of the oil filter and the place that installed the filter with the obvios defect in it bears responsibility. The driver also can bear responsibility if they kept driving it after knowing that it was low and loosing oil.

You would be in a much better situation if the car had to be towed to a shop (that didn't have any prior knowledge of the vehicle) due to the vehicle's oil pressure gauge dropping, engine making horrible noise, and having to pull over...

Just my thoughts

 

[somecallmejim]

KBB is NOT an accurate assessment of vehicle value. Would YOU pay $7000 for your car? I sure wouldn't, nor would an insurance company.

Actually, I just went looking, and I found two different local dealerships (local being within 75 miles) who have very comparable vans, and both have them priced between $6500 and $7000. Besides that, you can argue that any appraisal out there is a highball. Did you pay for your house what the appraiser told you it was worth? Hopefully not. Jewelry is another great example. Heck, we have a jewelry store in the area that brags about how their jewelry will appraise for double what you pay. An appraisal is just an indicator of what your car is worth and what *someone* will pay for it.

And again, I'm not trying to make some arbitrary figure here. If I can come out of this with a running, reliable 8-9 year old vehicle, I'll be happy.

Did your low oil pressure light not warn you, not to drive without enough oil pressure?

I'd swear I already mentioned this, but maybe I did it on the other forum I'm discussing this issue on. The light didn't come on until almost just after when the engine started running funny. By that time the damage was done. My wife was literally less than 1/2 mile from her job, so the distance from the oil light to parking the car was negligible.

And it was the bigger 6 cylinder engine they offered that year

If the oil filter failed, leaked enough oil to cause the damage, then the manufacturer of the oil filter and the place that installed the filter with the obvios defect in it bears responsibility. The driver also can bear responsibility if they kept driving it after knowing that it was low and loosing oil.

You would be in a much better situation if the car had to be towed to a shop (that didn't have any prior knowledge of the vehicle) due to the vehicle's oil pressure gauge dropping, engine making horrible noise, and having to pull over...

True enough. Thanks for your input.

Basically, it comes down to it being a case of us being too broke to have the car looked at. I have some mechanical background, so I did the best I could with what I had. As it was, our mechanic told us that I did the only thing one could do in that situation, aside from having a mechanic repair it. Put in oil, watch the levels, drive carefully.

As I just mentioned, the distance from the light to being parked was short, and by the time the light came on, the damage was done.

As far as the filter goes, it really does look like the filter got dropped or chucked at a wall. I have no clue if it happened at the oil change place or farther up the line at the oil filter plant, but the only thing I have agreement on from my mechanic is that the hole in the filter is in a location where it had to happen before it was installed.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[Zigner]

Actually, I just went looking, and I found two different local dealerships (local being within 75 miles) who have very comparable vans, and both have them priced between $6500 and $7000.

That is a PERFECT example of the FACT that your car is worth nowhere NEAR $7,000.00