high schools and driving privleges

[cyjeff]

No. I said I wasn't going to bother coming back for legal advice.

And you keep saying princess, but that's ok. Girls are cool.

Actually, I knew you were a boy, Princess. Usually, to get this degree of drama, you have to look to the female of the species.

Hahahahahahahaha that's hilarious. When exactly do you believe that you said this?

Just then. Again, unless there is a point in error, I don't need to chime in.

excepting during school hours....lol. Don't worry, you'll get the hang of the english language sometime. Just keep on trucking.

I recommend an investment in a dictionary.

That is a perfectly acceptable use of the word.

Yeah. I was getting irritated at the irrelevance of it all.

And that's the point, moron. It isn't irrelevant in a court of law. The words have a very precise meaning and you insisted upon using it incorrectly.

Just because YOU believe a point isn't important does not make that point unimportant to the rest of the world.

You will find as you grow up that there are a great many things you don't understand. A mark of maturity is the ability to learn without taking the words "You are incorrect" as a personal affront.

So, what was the point of you saying anything at all? (what exactly do you think has been useful about anything you've said?) Do you think that rather the thread could have done without a chorus of people spouting crap?

I was trying to help.

And I did. You were so busy on your "why is everyone being so mean to me" rant that you may have missed it.

I imagine that happens a lot.

So, you haven't been to broadway then.

Irrelevant.... as are many of your statements.

if it is important, I have had the privilege (see the proper use there?) to see shows on Broadway and off Broadway often.

No, I usually have pretty cool people around me who don't start crap. My parents? They're fine. How did your parents survive you?

Easily. I didn't skip class just for lunch.

So what you are saying is that you are the brains of your particular outfit. Kinda like being the smartest kid in the dumb kid class.

I

like how you're trying to relinquish any responsibility for creating any crap at all.

What started your pitiful little rant at me was my observation that you were skipping school... and that was a fact that you seemed to try to minimize.. due to the food quality, due to this, due to that.

You seem to have a bit of a responsibility problem yourself... after all, you are here to find out how to prevent actually taking your deserved punishment.

You say things like "what I did was wrong" but you want to work the system to keep from paying the cost.

Your entire threat is an attempt to relinquish responsibility.

You like coming on the internet and attempting to irritate people. You get a rise out of it don't you? I bet you're not this arrogant in real life. Surely someone would've handed you your dessert by now if you were.

Is that how you look at the world. If people irritate you, you hit them?

You gain maturity by the moment.

Believe it or not, nothing I have said was arrogant. You took it that way, but that was certainly not the intent.

However, you seemed determined to pout and stomp your little foot until we all decided to play by your rules.

You are correct... you should have stayed among your friends. Here, among adults, we don't have to entertain your views of the world or your demands as to how to be treated.

however, it is comforting to realize that your parents grounded you tonight... at least they see the problem for what it is.

Good boy, cyjeff. It's fascinating that you know this. But I believe the key words in the sentence were "rambling, nonsensical bs".

I take it you have never actually read Twain, princess. Well, at least past Huck Finn.

Abe Lincoln once said (and I paraphrase), "it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

 

[notmyname2]

Do you really have that much trouble with the English language? Is it a second language for you?

ummmm....I don't really have anything to say to you man. Your responses get kind of old. I don't know hey....maybe I should just say 'your mom's a second language'.

How's that? Does that work for you?

that was not part of your original question. It was a subsequent question in a later post, post 6 to be precise:

....the 'original question' concerning arriving at/leaving school events....

what the christ is your problem?

I even reposted it for you, as a reference.....I didn't realize you had such an intellectual deficiency in making sense of an internet post.....I'm sorry....for you.

Can you not read?

arghh. Sigh. Just sigh.

You're a one hit wonder.

You got accurate answers. You are the one complaining about how you are treated. I don't do "warm fuzzies".

ummmmmmmm.....well....neither does your mom......? How are we doing here? Is this going ok for you? I'm not really sure what else you might want here.

 

[notmyname2]

This is a forum, not a legal website.

Ohhhhhh Humusluvr!!! Don't burst their self-importance bubble like that!
What have you done?


But, no, Humusluvr, I don't feel that you were a jerk about things. Your response was very accurate. I would guess that comes from actually having some qualifications in the area. Thanks for your valued input.

 

[notmyname2]

lol. Ok, don't you think it's kind of funny to put this quote:

Abe Lincoln once said (and I paraphrase), "it is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

at the end of an ENORMOUS post. lol.

cyjeff, you crack me up.

Actually, I knew you were a boy, Princess.

Oh, you 'knew'. lol.

Usually, to get this degree of drama, you have to look to the female of the species.

Well, that can probably be attributed to my father's "listen to your mother!". And hey, what better teacher when it comes to drama!

Just then. Again, unless there is a point in error, I don't need to chime in.

Well don't you just have your past, present and future tense all mixed up! Look at you, playing these (idiotic) word games! You are a smart one!

I recommend an investment in a dictionary.

Everything's on the internet dude, people don't buy stuff like that.

And that's the point, moron.

Awww moron. Can you touch the bottom yet? How low can you get?

You will find as you grow up that there are a great many things you don't understand.

I'm guessing this is coming straight from the heart. Tell me more about your experiences of being lost in a grown-up's world?

A mark of maturity is the ability to learn without taking the words "You are incorrect" as a personal affront.

I CAN'T believe you just SAID THAT! That was so RUDE! That's it. I'm OFFENDED!

I was trying to help.

Well, I guess that the only advice I have for you is: keep trying. Maybe one day you'll be the poster who actually does offer some help. Chin up. There there.

I imagine that happens a lot.

you imagine what happens a lot?

Irrelevant.... as are many of your statements.

(hmmmm cyjeff initiated talk of Broadway and now this, how curious!)

Yeah, not like your prize-winning statements. Like when you said 'moron', there was a certain poetic flow to it, it was beautiful cyjeff, well done.

if it is important, I ha

No, it's not important.

Easily. I didn't skip class just for lunch.

Well if that's what it comes down to. Neither did I! We're the same, you and I! I skipped lunch for lunch.

So what you are saying is that you are the brains of your particular outfit. Kinda like being the smartest kid in the dumb kid class.

lol. you're funny. Subtle. And yet.....wrong. It's a nice mix.

What started your pitiful little rant at me was my observation that you were skipping school...

You can't claim that as an 'observation'. I told you this. Very very low standards of observation.

and that was a fact that you seemed to try to minimize.. due to the food quality, due to this, due to that.

I didn't state these to 'minimize' anything. It's a fact. We left school to get food because the cafeteria food was gonna put us in the hospital. (like the other, poor 57 souls who went before us, blessed are they and so on)

I told you these facts. You act like you're some sort of defective.

(do I need to point out the deliberate misspelling....? Is that something you can figure out by yourself? I feel like this is somewhere one needs to explain things in simple terms....)

You seem to have a bit of a responsibility problem yourself... after all, you are here to find out how to prevent actually taking your deserved punishment.

Right. See, here's your main problem. No, I didn't come here to find out how to prevent actually taking my deserved punishment.

What happened was I got in trouble with the principal, he told me the punishment. I said yes, sir. Then I left and started thinking, hmmm, I wonder where this actually stands in legal terms. Not because I wanted to find a way around it. Because I'm curious about the law.

So then I came here and posed my question. And from there, all manner of hilarious misunderstandings have arisen

It's all gotten quite comical actually. Like the Marx brothers or something. Not Karl Marx. Heavens no. There's nothing funny about Karl Marx. And I don't know if he had any brothers.

And hey, I haven't driven since and I don't plan to. Alright. Stop creating your own little persona for me in your head.

You say things like "what I did was wrong" but you want to work the system to keep from paying the cost.

I outlined this above Groucho.

Your entire threat is an attempt to relinquish responsibility.

Up Groucho. Up.

Is that how you look at the world. If people irritate you, you hit them?

Yes. Absolutely. Undeniably. You are very perceptive.

You gain maturity by the moment.

Just think of how much maturity I gained in all the moments that passed while I was reading your enormous post. (and now, my response!) lol.

You are correct... you should have stayed among your friends. Here, among adults, we don't have to entertain your views of the world or your demands as to how to be treated.

My demands such as asking a legal question on a legal forum and expecting a response based on legalities? I know, I'm such a kid.

however, it is comforting to realize that your parents grounded you tonight... at least they see the problem for what it is.

hmmm...did you say that because I had a post stamped 8.14pm? lol. ok.

......was that you heavy breathing by the window?.....OH.....that's why you said 'I knew you were a boy'.

Dude, be careful around my mom's petunias when you're stalking around my window.

Also....there's a dog...he's quite large. But just give him some sausages.

I take it you have never actually read Twain, princess. Well, at least past Huck Finn.

Why would I not have read Twain, Stalky?


...you know, Abe Lincoln once said...


LOL

 

[cyjeff]

Enjoy walking.

 

[notmyname2]

While I'm not opposed to the health benefits of walking.....I'm not the only kid in school with a car. And hey, my friends owe me for me being the one to get suspended for making sure we all made it to safe, delicious food.

Skateboards and bikes also offer a perfectly fun, fast and dangerous method of transport while I have an enforced reduction on my carbon footprint.

You might have seen my skateboard lying around just outside the door while you were nosying about and heavy breathing. Yeah, don't try to ride it, I don't think you'd have the balance.

 

[quincy]

You are getting to know your principal pretty well, huh, notmyname?

Chief Justice Rehnquist used as an example, in Paul v Davis, the right of people to drive. He said that by issuing a driver's license, a state recognizes their citizens' right to operate a vehicle on state roads. The Supreme Court has held that the state cannot withdraw this right from an individual without due process of law.

Due process is guaranteed in Article XIV of the Constitution, which says in part: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Due process includes the right of an individual to a specific, clear, full and (usually) written notice of the reason for a proposed action, and a reference to the regulation under which such action is proposed. Due process also includes the right to be heard.

The school should have provided you with such a notice and with a justification for the penalty imposed that is commensurate with the violation. The school should have provided you with the school policy that you violated.

Any school policy which could result in your exclusion from school (ie. if driving yourself to school is the only way you can attend) can be challenged. Students, believe it or not, have due process rights, just like regular adult people.

All of that said, however, trying to fight for your right to drive to and from school (even if you never park in the school parking lot or on school grounds - which the school can legitimately and legally control) is about as tough as fighting for your right to publish videos of school stunts on YouTube.

I am not sure this one is worth fighting, notmyname - especially if your parents are supporting the school's restriction on your driving. Skateboarding, biking, or hitching a ride with friends seems to be your best choice.

By the way, you have held your own pretty well against cyjeff. That is really hard to do.

 

[justalayman]

Chief Justice Rehnquist used as an example, in Paul v Davis, the right of people to drive. He said that by issuing a driver's license, a state recognizes their citizens' right to operate a vehicle on state roads. The Supreme Court has held that the state cannot withdraw this right from an individual without due process of law.

Ya got to help me on this one Quincy.

are you claiming that administrative actions to suspend a license for failure to take certain actions provides for due process?

There are laws in many states that provide for automatic suspension of a drivers privilege for many things such as:

failure to file an sr-22 when required
refusal to submit to a breathalyzer test



Not only are the suspensions automatic, there is often no method to appeal the placement of the suspension. Due to the fact that these are administrative actions, all that is required for the suspensions to be placed is a charge of failing to submit an sr22 or a claim of refusing to submit to a breathalyzer. A person does not have to be charged or tried of either offense for the administrative suspension to be applied.

I don't think I'm seeing due process in those actions. What about you?

 

[quincy]

Yup. That is what I am claiming.

A notice MUST be served on an individual stating the grounds for a driver's license suspension and informing the individual of their RIGHT to a hearing. Within a certain specified amount of time after receipt of the (usually written) notice (and the amount of time may vary by state), a person has the right to appeal a driver's license suspension.

Generaly a request for a hearing will stay the suspension, however states may suspend a license, pending an administrative hearing, for any alcohol or drug-related offenses. Although the suspension may be automatic, the appeal of the suspension is still a right. With an appeal of a suspension, it is possible for an individual to be issued a provisional license (a to-and-from-work license), for instance.

A school cannot, however, suspend a driver's license or suspend the right of a student to drive, because a school does not have the right to issue a driver's license or grant the right of the student to drive in the first place. All the school can legally do is suspend the privilege a student has of driving and parking on school grounds.

 

[notmyname2]

You are getting to know your principal pretty well, huh, notmyname?

Haha. Hey Quincy

Ja.....we 'bond' from time to time....

And thank you very much for bringing some perspective back to this thread. This is the sort of interesting response I was hoping for all along.

The school should have provided you with such a notice and with a justification for the penalty imposed that is commensurate with the violation. The school should have provided you with the school policy that you violated.

Now, would the school be considered to have done this...'proactively' I guess, by having given every student the driving regulations document which outlines the policies, regulations and the consequences of violating the regulations? This is the document that we, and parents, read (cough glance at - I have now read it several times in the last few days from start to finish ) at the start of the year and sign.

The only 'notice' given was verbal. They have a written record of it somewhere but not me or my parents.
I don't know if this would be different if your driving privileges were suspended indefinitely.

And like I mentioned already, there's not actually a sentence in the document that deals with taking a car off campus once you've arrived at school. (Although it is very specific about not being in the carpark and it does take some special powers to get into your car and then get your car off campus without being in the carpark....).

(I didn't mention to the principal that this line is missing, he already got started on changing one school policy this year because of that other thing I did...I'm not trying to be a revolutionary...)

I am not sure this one is worth fighting, notmyname - especially if your parents are supporting the school's restriction on your driving.

Yeah, I didn't plan to fight it. I don't plan to disrespect it either. But I was interested in what the legal side of deciding not to follow the suspension would be.
The principal is still a reasonable guy, I learnt that from discussing film making and distribution with him So I'm really not looking to go out of my way to shake things up with him.
(by the way, that's never been back on youtube, there's been pressure, lol, but we're holding out!)

By the way, you have held your own pretty well against cyjeff. That is really hard to do.

Haha. Thanks. It gets kind of fun once you get into it.

Thanks for your thought-provoking post, Quincy.

Justalayman - you justa got interesting again....

 

[notmyname2]

A school cannot, however, suspend a driver's license or suspend the right of a student to drive, because a school does not have the right to issue a driver's license or grant the right of the student to drive in the first place. All the school can legally do is suspend the privilege a student has of driving and parking on school grounds.

I just saw this post too, yeah, so it does all come down to my willingness to play the game and my willingness to avoid any further trouble rather than the school having any say at all over my legal ability to drive...

So....(and it goes on)...this also applies in states where the school's legal responsibility for students starts when they step outside the house? I'm assuming yes, it does apply, because they're basically taking over the parent's responsibility and a parent doesn't have the ability to suspend a drivers license either (just the ability to ruin your life ).....

Is that right? (Or is there something else going on there with parents/guardians and legal documents?)

 

[justalayman]

quincy;2518150]Yup. That is what I am claiming.

A notice MUST be served on an individual stating the grounds for a driver's license suspension and informing the individual of their RIGHT to a hearing. Within a certain specified amount of time after receipt of the (usually written) notice (and the amount of time may vary by state), a person has the right to appeal a driver's license suspension.

I find it implausible that so many states take such administrative actions which are apparently unconstitutional and they have not been challenged and over turned.





Additionally, I know for a fact that Michigan and Indiana have both suspended driver's licenses without notification. I have known people in each state that have had their license suspended for various reasons without any action known to the driver and with no specific notice provided to the driver. Generally they found out about the suspension when they were stopped for a traffic violation and were not aware their license had been suspended.

and I'm not talking about the folks that move around or ignore their mail.

Generaly a request for a hearing will stay the suspension, however states may suspend a license, pending an administrative hearing, for any alcohol or drug-related offenses. Although the suspension may be automatic, the appeal of the suspension is still a right. With an appeal of a suspension, it is possible for an individual to be issued a provisional license (a to-and-from-work license), for instance.

Maybe I'll have to do some looking but I am fairly certain there are several laws or allowed administrative actions that come to mind quickly that do not allow an appeal of the action.

A school cannot, however, suspend a driver's license or suspend the right of a student to drive, because a school does not have the right to issue a driver's license or grant the right of the student to drive in the first place. All the school can legally do is suspend the privilege a student has of driving and parking on school grounds.

While it may not be the school suspending the license, in some states it is the school that would provide info to the DMV that will cause a suspension. So, while the school may not have the right to suspend a drivers license, they often have the power to have it suspended by those that do have the power.

and as notmyname has just asked, a schools liability (albeit generally limited) does start when the student leaves the house in some states and situations, can they extend their powers to control driving during this time?

 

[quincy]

Justalayman, states have statutes that provide for an immediate loss of a license with alcohol and drug-related offenses. These are administrative license suspensions or revocations, and they allow for the immediate suspension or revocation of a license subject to due process rights. A person may appeal the loss of their license with an adminstrative hearing to get the suspension/revocation set aside.

There is a VERY short period of time in which to appeal a suspension or revocation - the administrative hearings generally must be requested within, depending on the state, five to 15 days. Once the appeal period is over, the right to appeal is also over.

But, there MUST be notice given, of the suspension, the reason for the suspension, and the right to a hearing on the suspension. Without such a notice, a reason and the chance for a hearing, there would be nothing to prevent a state from deciding randomly to suspend the licenses of all people who, say, drive red cars.

These automatic suspensions HAVE been subject to court hearings over their constitutionality, by the way - brought on double jeopardy, equal protection under the law and due process grounds.

As for a school's control over a student outside of school, this control, too, has been challenged in the courts. The cases that most frequently make it to court are over a student's First Amendment rights. Two, of many, are below.

In Emmet v Kent School District, 92 F.Supp 2d 1088 (W.D. Wash 2000), a personal out-of-school student blog case, the Court held that "although the intended audience was undoubtedly connected to Kentlake High School, the speech was entirely outside of the school's supervision or control."

Flaherty v Keystone Oaks School District, 247 F. Supp Ed 698 (W.D. Pa 2003) involved a school's policy which prohibited "inappropriate, harassing, offensive or abusive behavior." A federal court found this policy unconstitutional because "the policy could be (and is) read by school officials to cover speech that occurs off school premises and that is not related to any school activity.."

Notmyname, I understand that the school provided you with the rules and regulations related to driving and parking on school grounds. I assume you received a parking permit after signing a form and, perhaps, paying for the privilege to park in the school's lot. Included, too, was probably a statement that said parking privileges could be suspended or revoked for violation of a school policy. I would be very surprised, however, if what you signed said that the school could or would suspend your driver's license. That would be a violation of your state-given right to drive.

An oral notice of the suspension of your parking privileges and an oral explanation of the reason why your parking privileges were being suspended is permitted. By telling you of your suspension, you had the ability to present a "defense" and challenge the suspension (although you were wise not to, as it was obviously deserved ).

The school can generally only be held responsible for a student when the student is on school property (which includes school buses). The school cannot deny you the right to stop at a 7-11 on the way to school or to pick up an egg McMuffin at McDonald's. A school can control what you do once you are on school property and during the school day. They can punish a student for violations of school policies. But the punishments cannot exceed the reach of the school.

There is a definite limit to a school's reach, and courts have defined, and are continuing to define, those limits.

 

[justalayman]

The school can generally only be held responsible for a student when the student is on school property (which includes school buses). The school cannot deny you the right to stop at a 7-11 on the way to school or to pick up an egg McMuffin at McDonald's. A school can control what you do once you are on school property and during the school day. They can punish a student for violations of school policies. But the punishments cannot exceed the reach of the school

.

so far I have only found a reporting of a case where a school was found 20% liable for a girls rape while she was walking home after school but since I don't have a citation for the actual case, I'll leave this as you suggest.

But, there MUST be notice given, of the suspension, the reason for the suspension, and the right to a hearing on the suspension. Without such a notice, a reason and the chance for a hearing, there would be nothing to prevent a state from deciding randomly to suspend the licenses of all people who, say, drive red cars.

while you can claim there is a requirement, I know for a fact this is not how it is done in many situations.

These automatic suspensions HAVE been subject to court hearings over their constitutionality, by the way - brought on double jeopardy, equal protection under the law and due process grounds.

then it would seem that states would have gotten the hint by now but again, I can assure you this is not always the case.

It's not that I am arguing that your position is incorrect as I do agree with you. It's just that I have seen it not followed as you claim it must be.

I will admit that none of those I am aware of that did receive an administrative suspension argued a right to challenge the suspension on the basis of due process so I could not say what would have happened if they did challenge the suspensions. Most of them were simply worried about either not going to jail or getting out of jail for driving on a suspended license.

 

[quincy]

You may want to read Bell v Burson, 402 US 535 (1971). And, although Paul v Davis is basically a defamation case (that was argued, and lost, as a Fourteenth Amendment case ), it has an Opinion by Rehnquist that is worth reading.

As for the administrative hearings, all I can tell you is that a person who has his license automatically suspended MUST be told the reason for the suspension and that he has the right to a hearing. Because the time is so short within which a hearing must be requested, I suppose it is possible that many people miss their opportunity to appeal their suspensions. If they hire an attorney right away, the attorney will generally appeal it.