Interpretation of summer parenting time

[wileybunch]

I do agree with him in one respect. I personally think that its important to give teenagers a limited amount of "say" in regards to visitation....and in regards to their life in general. I think it breeds healthier adult relationships, and sometimes even healthier teenage relatonships too. Almost no one on this particular forum agrees with me on that issue, but my observations of real life are what has led me to that conclusion.

The "say" Mom wants DD to have is to limit Dad's time as much as possible. In court last year, she sought to cut off all visitation and leave it totally ad hoc according to what DD could fit into her schedule. That kind of attitude has always been there, never let up, and is the tone and approach of Mom toward Dad and what Mom has taught the kids is their right. Of course judge was furious with her and she withdrew her motion as soon as she and her attorney got the judge's reaction, but we're not talking about the idea that taking a child's wishes somewhat into consideration is a good thing. We're talking about an extremely alienating mother that has forced her emotions onto the children who think they are doing right by mom to do as she says. DD's summer schedule suggestion was exactly as Mom had said -- just the regular school year type schedule. Mom said she (Mom) should have say-so in any "extra" time and it should only be considered if Dad is going on vacation or doing something fun.

Anyway, DH has character flaws, this is just how this part of his life has played out b/c of it.

 

[Humusluvr]

The "say" Mom wants DD to have is to limit Dad's time as much as possible. In court last year, she sought to cut off all visitation and leave it totally ad hoc according to what DD could fit into her schedule. That kind of attitude has always been there, never let up, and is the tone and approach of Mom toward Dad and what Mom has taught the kids is their right. Of course judge was furious with her and she withdrew her motion as soon as she and her attorney got the judge's reaction, but we're not talking about the idea that taking a child's wishes somewhat into consideration is a good thing. We're talking about an extremely alienating mother that has forced her emotions onto the children who think they are doing right by mom to do as she says. DD's summer schedule suggestion was exactly as Mom had said -- just the regular school year type schedule. Mom said she (Mom) should have say-so in any "extra" time and it should only be considered if Dad is going on vacation or doing something fun.

Anyway, DH has character flaws, this is just how this part of his life has played out b/c of it.

You know, wiley, I was thinking about your situation last night.

My ex was passive aggressive with his ex. He always gave me these heartbreaking stories about how his ex would deny him visitation on his weekends, about how his boss would not let him use vacation time to spend with his child, about car troubles and money troubles and how his ex was this ogre who dangled his child over his head. He would often cry to me about missing her and wanting to see her. She lived 150 miles away, but you would have thought it was 1000.

I came to find out through an enlightening email that he and his ex were writing to each other that it was never her. iT WAS HIM. HE gave up his visitation, so he could do fun things like drink and go hunting. HE didn't even show up to get her when he had promised to. HE bitched and moaned about money and the cost of gas and never even asked for time off. And HE slept with his ex every time he would go pick up his little girl. He messed with the minds of both of them. Unfortunately, I found out too late. I was already pregnant. This man, who I thought was a victim of all this hatred and being denied his child was the one at fault. I was so sad, not for him, but for his little girl. and for the kiddo we would share one day.

And that's why he became an ex. I give you so much credit for doing the right thing to help your husband and help his DD. But make sure your "right thing," and his "right thing" are the same thing. Sometimes we get so caught up in the battle, that we forget why we are fighting. or what we are fighting for.

 

[wileybunch]

Wise words, humus. Your ex and my DH aren't alike in that DH hasn't backed down to go drinking or whatever, but he has backed down to spare his own fragile ego, not b/c it's truly what was best for his kids. The counselor told him long ago that he felt mom has borderline personality disorder and it's no secret she has filled the kids with fantastic things so that they would be pawns that she could move around as she saw fit. She literally told the kids she was replacing their father when she was dating several married men while she was married to him. One of the men (not the one she ultimately married) was a customer of my company and he contacted me a few times to get ahold of DH to apologize to him. They finally had a conversation last summer. Her dastardly comments to the kids were worse than he ever thought. Even this boyfriend apparently told her she needed to knock it off, but the first time she brought the kids to meet him (he lived one state over), she literally introduced them to him as the "potential future father". That's just sick. So knowing what she does to those kids, he should feel the needs to provide for them, provide a parent that loves them unconditionally and not only if they take on his emotional burdens like the other parent does to them, he should be wanting to show them different family values and how to give and take, etc. His kids are growing up so much like their mother. I have kids so it's not hard for me to imagine what I would do if someone was keeping me from my kids. I told him that if I was accused of child abuse and was put on a case plan to get them back, no matter how humiliating it was, I would do whatever it took. I think it's a measure of a parents' character. I think he has decided many times/too often to protect his fragile ego. I just don't think men like that should be burdened with the responsibility of a family, then (ie. I would rather turn him loose than be yoked to that). I am very serious. I just got a life insurance policy in place that's generous and because I don't trust him to do the right thing under pressure, I am strongly considering changing my beneficiaries so my kids are provided for, not through him, but on their own. I can leave enough for him to pay 1/2 the mortgage, but nothing more. Why should I think he would advocate for my kids any better than he does his own?

Even if someone is a "victim", there's a victim mentality that some people have, like no one's ever had it worse. I've taken stories from here back to him and told him he hasn't seen anything, recently telling him of "daddenied" that put all their $ into hanging in there w/similar alienation, but worse b/c he has supervised visitation and was living off food from his church. He just gets mad when I show him examples of what others are willing to endure, says I'm not being understanding enough.

You said, "Sometimes we get so caught up in the battle, that we forget why we are fighting. or what we are fighting for."

My "fight" is for his kids, for them to have the privilege of having both parents in their life, to have the sins of the parents not on their heads any more. Neither of their parents apparently wants to do the right thing. It's too bad, but the reality is they are not my problem and they can all have each other. They apparently all like the sludge. But, those aren't values I can respect. I would rather move on in my life and proceed to do foster parenting/adoption like we had planned to do, but I have had to hold back b/c of the drama with that whole side of things. I'm tired of living in limbo.

 

[Humusluvr]

You know, 2 years ago I could have been one of those annoying "new g/f" or steps who wrote "Mom is so mean and doesn't want dad to see kids. What can WE do to take custody?" I'm glad I didn't do that, and incur the wrath.

But, I sat back and learned. It was not my fight. I somehow knew that if my ex wanted his daughter so badly, he wouldn't stop until he got her the weekends he was supposed to. I saw him doing all kinds of fun things with me, and hunting and fishing and taking trips, and arguing on the phone with his ex - and I just KNEW it wasn't my place to get involved. My ex's little girl wasn't being abused, I knew that, and my ex wasn't trying very hard to go to court or facilitate his relationship - she it wsn't my place.

I'm so glad I stayed out of it. I'm so glad I found that email. I'm so glad I'm smart enough to make wise decisions that may not be easy - but they are the best for my son.

You know, I empathize with your DH. I'm a bit of a pansy. I don't like to fight, and if the other person is louder or angrier or pushier - I back down easy. But I will NEVER back down when it comes to this kid. I'm not going to let my ex's passive aggressive, manipulative, pathological ways hurt our son. I wish your husband would grow that pair.

Remember, just because it bothers you enough to do something about it, doesn't mean it bothers HIM enough to do something about it. that's the situation I was in with my ex. That's why he is my ex. I personally would fight to the death for my kid. I would sacrifice whatever it takes to keep him safe and provided for. I will parent to the best of my ability, read every book, research, and try my hardest to have the most well adjusted kid, despite the sucky circumstances. Parenting is about sacrifice, but its also about fighting for what your kids deserve.

 

[wileybunch]

Quick update ...

After last Thu's counseling session w/Mom, DH was supposed to talk to his 13yoDD to work out summer schedule, counselor specifically wanted Mom to back out of it. DH called Mom Sun night to get some more information so that he could massage the schedule a little and then talk to his DD about it on his regular Monday night visit. Mom ended up putting Dad on speakerphone so DD could hear and channeled nonverbal communication through Mom (Mom said they lost handset to phone -- that was the excuse for speakerphone). DH really shouldn't have continued call like that, not only was he not supposed to be making commitments with ex, he certainly wasn't supposed to be making them with DD then, either. Luckily it probably didn't backfire in the long run, but we'll see. It's just not a good idea to both put 13yo in the position of whether Mom upholds the CO or not or to have her think she controls the entire schedule. The idea was to get INPUT.

So a schedule was hammered out and since Mom committed DD to babysitting and family vacations they are doing they just couldn't make a 50/50 work, but it's about 43/57. Not bad. DH changed the schedule to give to Mom after Monday night visit since they'd both be at DD's piano recital. We picked up DD before recital to go out to dinner and kill some time and after entering piano room at library where DD saw Mom, then DD handed packet to Dad with schedules in it (we thought it was her sheet music) that Mom and DD had signed and dated. DH went back out to car and signed copies of the schedule he'd made and gave those to Mom after the recital b/c she had some things wrong on hers and she signed. He did not make a point of telling Mom that DD did not need to sign something that had legal implications, he just didn't make DD's signature a requirement so Mom signed and he kept the signed copy and she has the 2nd one he signed for her copy.

June is heavily weighted to time w/Mom (in the 25/75 neighborhood) so DH is concerned that Mom will renege on the agreement in July and August when he's supposed to have more time. I told DH he really should get the schedule filed so he's going to broach the subject with her and get that done.

 

[proud_parent]

Thanks for the update, wiley.

Fingers crossed for all that Mom's compliance shapes up over the course of the summer.

 

[wileybunch]

Another update:

Schedule agreed to a week ago today. Only top schedule (June) was signed by her (oversight, not b/c she didn't agree) so DH had Mom signed the other 2 month's schedules specifically when he picked DD up last Thu PM.

The exchange back to Mom was to be this morning (Mon) and Dad called Mom yesterday afternoon to remind her of this so she wouldn’t accidentally show up on Sunday night like she would during school year. That started an argument with Mom where she wanted to put 13yoDD in the middle to decide. Ultimately DH told Mom they were leaving the agreed to schedule as is and he would bring DD back in the morning and DD was fine with it. DH also asked DD later to call her Mom to let her know she wanted to stay as her mom didn’t seem to want to believe DH. It's all a lot of drama over nothing. DH had let Mom know that he thought DD was afraid to tell her for fear of what her reaction would be and to not put her in the middle. Anyway, DD did call her Mom and told her she wanted to stay and we enjoyed the rest of the visit together Sunday evening and DH brought DD home this morning. Mom had already left for work when DH dropped DD off and DD had only been home less than 20 minutes when DH got this voice mail from Mom:


Hey Dad, it’s Mom, um, I just wanted to say, I’ll, I’ll shoot you an email with the details but um after your really really dishonest and deceitful practices, I’m going back to, um, what’s legal in our decree and that’s my weekends and my vacation time so for the rest of the summer, I don’t care if DD wants to stay all week when it’s not my weekend and it’s not my vacation time, it’s totally up to you two to work that out, she said that you lied, she never told you at all last night that she was afraid to tell me, so that’s you putting words in her mouth again, but um I’m keeping my weekends and keeping my vacation time, yours and mine included, you have her 4 nights this weekend, I get nothing next weekend, Father’s Day being your day and she’s at girl’s camp so I’m keeping her on the 14th , you can have her at 9AM on Father’s Day just like the decree says, um, not willing to cooperate with you, at all, if you, if you can’t work and be more honest, you know you carry on about how I’m so dishonest, and talk about calling the kettle black, so, um, Sunday at 9 you can pick her up and then your normal vacation time after that will be fine and, you know, same with the weekend in July, you’re not taking my weekend so that’s pretty much black and white. You want to be legal, we’ll be legal. Any other time, she’s welcome to decide for herself.

*****

She didn't send DH the email she said she would, but DH emailed her this evening and sent her a text to please check her email and he hoped they could work it out.

This is the email:

Summer Parenting Schedule


Mom,

I received your voice mail this morning.

Again, our court order filed 9/2000 states:

Father shall be allowed two (2) weeks of uninterrupted vacation time with the children during the year, as well as up to one-half (1/2) the children's summer vacation time according to what he can fit into his schedule.


As you are aware, it's been a difficult process trying to establish a summer schedule that complies with this provision for my parenting time. It's been an uphill battle all the way because you seem to think you can decide how much time I get in the summertime and after we had an agreement thoroughly discussed and signed off, you are already unilaterally deciding to cancel it. However, you cannot cancel the provision that gives me up to one-half of DD's summer vacation time and again in your voice mail today you are talking in terms of "your weekend" and "my weekend" based on the school-year 1st/3rd weekend parenting time I have when it's been made clear repeatedly and the court order cited what the summer parenting time share is supposed to be. See above -- it's there again for you to review.

I thought we had an agreement. Granted, I had to settle for only 43% time this summer when I made it known I planned to exercise the full 50%. And, even with an agreement we both signed, I cannot get you to abide by the agreement, even within a week of signing it, you have started several disagreements over it and continue to assert your view that it's DD's choice how and when you comply with the court order as you stated again in your voice mail this morning.

This limbo is not good for anyone and so this is the choice at this point:

1. Sign a stipulation and order agreeing to the schedule we both already signed and file it with the court. The stipulation was already prepared, but can't be attached here so I have attached a text document with what the main body of the stipulation says.
OR
2. I will return to court to remedy the violations of the court order for the summer provisions.

If you wish to pursue #1, please let me know and we will meet at a CREDIT UNION at 4:45PM tomorrow, Tuesday, LOCATION. I chose that location because it's close to you and should be on your way home. Or we can meet at the one across from ANOTHER LOCATION.

Even if we are able to get a stipulation and order filed, I must re-state as I have before that it is inappropriate to continue putting DD in the middle to make a choice about when she comes for parenting times. DD enjoys the time she spends with us as I'm sure she enjoys the time she spends with you. Don't make her feel guilty or bad about it, she is afforded a lot of privilege and opportunity by being able to be part of both families and experiences. Please just allow the court order to be followed and allow DD the privilege of being part of two families that both love and care for her.

Regards,
Dad

*****

I'm a pessimist and never thought Mom would behave. I felt that DH should have gone by what Mom already did and just pursue it through court. DH really wanted to try to work something out and he thought they had after an arduous process. We were investigating getting a stipulation put together and had just found the forms online to do that when this happened and she's obviously way off course again. At least now DH knows he has no other choice if she doesn't sign the stipulation. *sigh*

 

[Bloopy]

Did the counselor sign anything?

Is she willing to testify or sign an affidavit that this was the agreement Mom and Dad came to?

Why would Mom do better with something she signed at the credit union? Will Dad be getting it notarized?

 

[wileybunch]

Did the counselor sign anything?

Is she willing to testify or sign an affidavit that this was the agreement Mom and Dad came to?

Why would Mom do better with something she signed at the credit union? Will Dad be getting it notarized?

Counselor told Mom that Dad and DD needed to work schedule out b/c he wanted Mom out of the middle. Mom stayed in the middle, but nevertheless they (DH and ex) hammered out a schedule. They haven't returned to counselor -- DH doesn't feel it's the counselor's place to actually hammer out the schedule, he's there for an assist when the pot is stirred, not to relieve or change the court order. There's no question that Mom already agreed to the 3 summer months' schedule -- her signature's on each of the 3 pages (each month on a separate page). DH's meeting her at credit union is to notarize their signatures on a stipulation and order that references the signed agreement as an exhibit. I guess he could have made that more clear in the email! I really doubt she will do it, she really really thinks she decides what time DH has and does not acknowledge at all a summer provision, keeps trying to tell him he gets 1st and 3rd weekends only and only the one vacation he had first told her about (though there have been others planned since then for the dates he was to have DD). Reading her VM is one thing, but listening to it is another treat entirely. She really thinks she's above the law.

 

[penelope10]

Counselor told Mom that Dad and DD needed to work schedule out b/c he wanted Mom out of the middle. Mom stayed in the middle, but nevertheless they (DH and ex) hammered out a schedule. They haven't returned to counselor -- DH doesn't feel it's the counselor's place to actually hammer out the schedule, he's there for an assist when the pot is stirred, not to relieve or change the court order. There's no question that Mom already agreed to the 3 summer months' schedule -- her signature's on each of the 3 pages (each month on a separate page). DH's meeting her at credit union is to notarize their signatures on a stipulation and order that references the signed agreement as an exhibit. I guess he could have made that more clear in the email! I really doubt she will do it, she really really thinks she decides what time DH has and does not acknowledge at all a summer provision, keeps trying to tell him he gets 1st and 3rd weekends only and only the one vacation he had first told her about (though there have been others planned since then for the dates he was to have DD). Reading her VM is one thing, but listening to it is another treat entirely. She really thinks she's above the law.

I'm sorry wiley, I know you've probably said this in previous posts. But how many times has Dad gone back to court with MOM? (Last year for contempt, right?) Cause from what you've described, it's likely that Mom isn't going to keep her word on any agreement. Be it verbal, signed, notarized, or otherwise.

Dad may wish to speak with the counselor privately in regards to Mom's refusal to comply by any agreement. (In regards to any concerns he has regarding the effects on kiddo since this is probably bothersome to him). Cause frankly, sounds like Dad is ready to take off the velvet gloves. He's now given Mom notice that he's prepared to go back to court. It may or may not make a difference to her since she's a game player. Mom has crossed the line on several occasions correct? As things stand, she will most likely dance on that line until the court knocks her off IMO.

I realize that Dad is probably trying to settle this without going to court because time is a factor. If Mom is served for contempt she may withhold the summer visitation for spite. By the time the two of them get into court most of the summer may be gone. So I'm wondering if Dad cannot ask for some makeup time if this occurs. Extra weekends after the summer. Heck, enough weekends in a row that it might teach Mom a lesson....(And I realize that Dad is also trying not to disrupt the kiddo's life as well).

This is a really tough situation. I feel for all of you. Dad probably feels stuck between a rock and hard place. Plus it's gotta be frustrating for you as his spouse. Wish I could be of better help.

 

[wileybunch]

I'm sorry wiley, I know you've probably said this in previous posts. But how many times has Dad gone back to court with MOM? (Last year for contempt, right?) Cause from what you've described, it's likely that Mom isn't going to keep her word on any agreement. Be it verbal, signed, notarized, or otherwise.

That's what I think, too, and everyone else, as well. His attorney expected DH would be back in court "soon" after last court date. He should have been, but doesn't like to rock the boat. While I can appreciate that b/c of what his ex does to the kids and what that does to their relationship, all indicators are that he has to stay on top of the situation via the court until Mom knocks it off. It's ridiculous.

Dad may wish to speak with the counselor privately in regards to Mom's refusal to comply by any agreement. (In regards to any concerns he has regarding the effects on kiddo since this is probably bothersome to him).

I agree. DH and I spoke about that it's not an either/or, that the attorney is for legal issues, counselor for relationship issues, and he may need to be active w/both simultaneously.

I realize that Dad is probably trying to settle this without going to court because time is a factor. If Mom is served for contempt she may withhold the summer visitation for spite. By the time the two of them get into court most of the summer may be gone. So I'm wondering if Dad cannot ask for some makeup time if this occurs. Extra weekends after the summer. Heck, enough weekends in a row that it might teach Mom a lesson....(And I realize that Dad is also trying not to disrupt the kiddo's life as well).

It's not b/c of what she'll do in the summer, it's b/c he can't stand the conflict. He said he just wants her to do what she's supposed to do. When he says that, I just look right at him and say, "That's what judges are for, when people don't." She wouldn't dare withhold the entire summer from him. She did that last year and nearly ended up in jail. DH can't figure out what the trigger for Mom is, but it seems to be "just" a borderline personality thing. DD came for several days, had fun, etc. and that's too threatening to Mom. I even sent her home with a gift for her stepdad for Father's Day. I had had the kids' pictures taken as a surprise for DH and had separate pictures taken of her and framed/matted one of them and had her wrap it and take it home w/her to give to him for FD. Ours is not the family that has a hard time sharing her or is causing the drama. This behavior isn't going to resolve on its own.

BTW, her response to the text msg was:
Thanks for the birthday message. We had it resolved once. Sorry busy with my kids tonight.

(Apparently it was her b'day yesterday. DH did not remember that until she said that, but it's not like he instigated anything w/her, though, so nice how she plays the victim. ). Notice the "my" kids, though. That's not a slip.

 

[proud_parent]

BTW, her response to the text msg was:
Thanks for the birthday message. We had it resolved once. Sorry busy with my kids tonight.

(Apparently it was her b'day yesterday. DH did not remember that until she said that, but it's not like he instigated anything w/her, though, so nice how she plays the victim. ). Notice the "my" kids, though. That's not a slip.

Separated at birth, I'm telling you...

I'm w/ Pen; all I can say is "chin up, young person". I remember well how it went down with my DH's X: mediation every spring, relative quiet every summer (after the three months spent battling over summer schedule), then flat out denial of visitation each fall and back in court every November/December. As with your husband's ex, there was no obvious trigger -- it seemed to be cyclical (and thus even predicatable, to a point).

I wish I could tell you that it eventually gets easier. In our situation, it got a whole lot WORSE before it got better. But even that turned out to be for the good, because finally X dug herself a hole too deep to claw her way out. And nothing short of that was going to effect a real change in the situation, IMO.

Patience. Courage. Resolve. And lots and lots of positive thoughts coming your way from me.

 

[Humusluvr]

Unbelievable.

I feel so bad for DD - just knowing that when she returns home from visiting you that "mommy dearest" is waiting with a mental coat hanger. I will never understand the "if you love someone, mess with their mind" approach to parenting, love, teaching, anything....

I don't know if it has been asked, but is this a possible change in custody situation? What do you think mom would do if that were to happen?

proud_parent said "separated at birth???"

I think it was a set of triplets. Mine's in that crew!

So sorry for the stress and strain this puts on you, DH, DD, and the whole fam.

 

[wileybunch]

DH's attorney thinks he should go for a change of custody b/c it won't change, but that's a big pill to swallow for the 13yo. It's such a tough call that way, but an easy call when it comes to which parent would better allow the child to participate in both parents' lives.

There's been a lot of activity this morning, Mom calling Dad repeatedly leaving messages. Dad finally called back and I heard his end of things ... he just stated some things black/white that they needed to get the schedule they agreed to stipulated and filed or he would go to court to have it done. She said something like, "This has already set you back a year. C was getting ready to ...." and he cut her off. C is one of his alienated older kids (20yo). He finished that call then Mom called and left another message saying something like, "I don't know why you think you can just bully me into signing some stipulation and order. If you have something for me to look at, I'll take a look and have my attorney (she no longer has one of record) review it and get back to you. This forcing yourself .... you've already done so much damage with the older kids. I just had them to the point they were going to come out to meet you on Sat when you picked 13yoDD up and give you a card for Father's Day. This will just put an end to all of it and they won't have anything to do with you, they are so tired of this drama in their lives." The older 2 kids don't even live at home -- they are married for pete's sake.

Do you see how Mom melds her emotional issues with the children? 13yoDD has fun when she's with us, she's not complaining, Mom's set off for some unknown reason (see update yesterday) and somehow the adult kids are tired of *what* drama? So Mom's blackmailing DH, but if she's really pulling all the kids into it, she's also using them as pawns and gosh knows what she's telling them to make them feel sorry for her.

 

[penelope10]

That's what I think, too, and everyone else, as well. His attorney expected DH would be back in court "soon" after last court date. He should have been, but doesn't like to rock the boat. While I can appreciate that b/c of what his ex does to the kids and what that does to their relationship, all indicators are that he has to stay on top of the situation via the court until Mom knocks it off. It's ridiculous.

I agree. DH and I spoke about that it's not an either/or, that the attorney is for legal issues, counselor for relationship issues, and he may need to be active w/both simultaneously.

It's not b/c of what she'll do in the summer, it's b/c he can't stand the conflict. He said he just wants her to do what she's supposed to do. When he says that, I just look right at him and say, "That's what judges are for, when people don't." She wouldn't dare withhold the entire summer from him. She did that last year and nearly ended up in jail. DH can't figure out what the trigger for Mom is, but it seems to be "just" a borderline personality thing. DD came for several days, had fun, etc. and that's too threatening to Mom. I even sent her home with a gift for her stepdad for Father's Day. I had had the kids' pictures taken as a surprise for DH and had separate pictures taken of her and framed/matted one of them and had her wrap it and take it home w/her to give to him for FD. Ours is not the family that has a hard time sharing her or is causing the drama. This behavior isn't going to resolve on its own.

BTW, her response to the text msg was:
Thanks for the birthday message. We had it resolved once. Sorry busy with my kids tonight.

(Apparently it was her b'day yesterday. DH did not remember that until she said that, but it's not like he instigated anything w/her, though, so nice how she plays the victim. ). Notice the "my" kids, though. That's not a slip.

OMG what a witch. Like all ex's that have moved on are going to always remember the other ex's b-day? Especially when that other ex acts like an @$$?

Ya know, I have a fun little thing that I do. Doesn't change things, but it sure makes me feel better. I imagine the troublesome person loaded onto a giant catapult. (Not by ME, just a set of hands). Then I imagine the launch and the look of surprise. Then I imagine that person sailing off into space until they are a little tiny dot and I can't see them anymore.

Is this just the teensiest bit mean? (Of course)But it has really kept me sane (although I know it doesn't sound like it)And as I've said I can be a devious person. Sure has helped me get rid of the frustration too without pulling out my hair at times!