Interpretation of summer parenting time

[proud_parent]

If you were the CP and had just narrowly escaped going to jail last year for contempt, would you really try to use that reasoning? She hasn't yet, I suppose she could. She would have needed to try that first, not flounder around with "you're not the CP, you can't have her that much",and "you can only have her if you are taking the time off work" and the various other "you're so selfish", "you're just doing this to get back to me", etc.

I witnessed a CP attempt just such reasoning. Even after she had been found guilty of contempt.

She is now the NCP.

 

[wileybunch]

I don't think this particular CP is all that concerned that she'll wind up in jail. And yeah, I can see her using a very literal interpretation of the order... which would be exactly what I posted. It's been my experience w/my ex that it's a LOT easier to follow the court order maliciously than anyone ever thinks it will be.

I get what you're saying. If she ever got smart enough to reign in her mouth and do a literal ridiculous interpretation acting like she's doing it will full faith, then she maybe she could try that. This judge, though, will slap her down in a heartbeat. I just hope he stays in this part of family court for about 5 more years!

 

[Humusluvr]

Mom had informed Dad of various vacation times she planned to take this summer and time DD was babysitting for her coworker. DH told her he'd see if all that could be worked out and still do the 1/2 the time this summer and would get back to her with a schedule which he did and he didn't disturb the dates she wanted to have DD and the babysitting job except for the 4th of July week he'd already told her we would have her for vacation along with the 4th of July he has her this year. DH had emailed and mailed the schedules to her because she's started playing hide and seek with emails and not answering them (including asking about updates on counseling and in general WRT to 17.5yo son that's entirely alienated b/c of Mom) and she just won't answer at all. So he mailed schedules also. He gave it some time and then gave a set of schedules to DD on one of her parenting times with him. DD seemed fine with it. Literally minutes after DD returned home, Mom called Dad ranting and raving how he can't have DD that much this summer, she's the custodial parent, not him. It's just always an uphill battle with her.

sounds like mom is going to die on that hill. What a shame, she can't grow up and open her eyes.

This is a question we've had .....
If a change of custody would be relief the court deems necessary, would DH have to specifically motion for that particular relief?

I hope you do. The CP is supposed to facilitate a relationship with the NCP, and you have said that DH does EXACTLY THAT. Mom is just playing games. I hope DH shows daughter the love and non-manipulative support she needs.

We honestly believe his DD would have more peace in her life if DH was the CP b/c he would freely give information and not play the games her Mom does. But, he thinks if he specifically petitions for a change of custody, Mom will turn DD inside out w/her manipulation. He's wondering if a judge can order that even if DH doesn't specifically ask for that remedy.

Sounds like the judge is ready to see you again. Good luck to you!

 

[wileybunch]

I hope you do. The CP is supposed to facilitate a relationship with the NCP, and you have said that DH does EXACTLY THAT. Mom is just playing games. I hope DH shows daughter the love and non-manipulative support she needs.

You know, the thing is that DH doesn't expect anything from CP ie. any special favors to "facilitate" a relationship. He just expects her to follow the CO which is very clear and has been modified a few times to be more clear (ie. it's in their last CO AGAIN that she is to give him updates/info on things with the kids b/c she just flat out refuses to even when asked if there's anything coming up, anything new, asks about specific things, etc.). He basically just needs her to respect the boundaries the CO puts in place and stop with her fantasy of trying to erase him from kids' lives.

It will kill him in one sense if custody were changed b/c he knows the inner turmoil it would cause his DD and what Mom would do to her. DD is very much like DH. More reserved, don't like conflict, have their comfort zones, etc. When he got her last night, it was OBVIOUS that Mom had thrown a fit about things to DD WRT to DH and it's just so damn sad what it does to DD and then she has to pull herself up out of that bad mood her Mom puts on her so she can enjoy herself and the time she spends with us. We give her her space when we see she's like this so she can morph out of that into the environment in our home and then she is able to be herself again, but I can't imagine what it's like to be 13yo and get plowed under like that and then come back up out of it once there's enough distance from it. What a rollercoaster.

 

[LdiJ]

You know, the thing is that DH doesn't expect anything from CP ie. any special favors to "facilitate" a relationship. He just expects her to follow the CO which is very clear and has been modified a few times to be more clear (ie. it's in their last CO AGAIN that she is to give him updates/info on things with the kids b/c she just flat out refuses to even when asked if there's anything coming up, anything new, asks about specific things, etc.). He basically just needs her to respect the boundaries the CO puts in place and stop with her fantasy of trying to erase him from kids' lives.

It will kill him in one sense if custody were changed b/c he knows the inner turmoil it would cause his DD and what Mom would do to her. DD is very much like DH. More reserved, don't like conflict, have their comfort zones, etc. When he got her last night, it was OBVIOUS that Mom had thrown a fit about things to DD WRT to DH and it's just so damn sad what it does to DD and then she has to pull herself up out of that bad mood her Mom puts on her so she can enjoy herself and the time she spends with us. We give her her space when we see she's like this so she can morph out of that into the environment in our home and then she is able to be herself again, but I can't imagine what it's like to be 13yo and get plowed under like that and then come back up out of it once there's enough distance from it. What a rollercoaster.

I still think that mom needs to hear it straight from the judge's mouth that she is interpreting the order wrong. That is why I suggested the motion to clarify. The more time a judge tells her that she is wrong, hopefully the fewer times that she will try to pull these kinds of things.

Most CP's just get worse and worse if they are like this, (female and male) if they never get a comupance from a judge.

 

[wileybunch]

I still think that mom needs to hear it straight from the judge's mouth that she is interpreting the order wrong. That is why I suggested the motion to clarify. The more time a judge tells her that she is wrong, hopefully the fewer times that she will try to pull these kinds of things.

Most CP's just get worse and worse if they are like this, (female and male) if they never get a comupance from a judge.

I see that POV. She really does, but she does think she's above the law. She needs a rewind of what the judge told her last year. He was clearly angry w/her and told her twice he believed she was in contempt and if he set the matter for an evidentiary trial to expect to go to jail that day. Her version was that he was never at any time upset w/her. DH has offered to give her a copy of the tape. She should have a copy of the minute order where even though DH made a settlement w/her, the judge noted she had "accommodated" violations of the orders.

DH is deciding which direction to take. Attorney's advice is to move to change custody. Or he can just go in on contempt only but there is really no expectation that she will stop her psychological warfare with the child so there would likely be still a lot of garbage floating around the child.

 

[Bloopy]

I completely disagree.

You are of course correct that 'up to' means 'not to exceed'. But I think that the most important part of the verbage wiley posted is "Father shall be allowed" ... meaning that the Court has so ordered, and it is not at Mom's discretion to override the order.

In other words, Mom doesn't get to "grant" squat. A judge has granted the father up to the specified duration of parenting time; it's Dad's choice as to whether he exercises all his time or not.

Ahh the common sense interpretation.

CJane was offering what she suspects will be the "I am CP, I am God" interpretation Mom may go for.

 

[proud_parent]

Ahh the common sense interpretation.

Apparently not common enough (read on)...

CJane was offering what she suspects will be the "I am CP, I am God" interpretation Mom may go for.

Understood.

As I said, I've seen exactly that interpretation applied by a CP before ('cept that this one doesn't believe in God...substitute your own deity or none at all, whatever suits). And I heard the judge's reaction. First, as he bawled out CP's attorney, behind closed doors in his chambers. The walls weren't thick enough to prevent his words from echoing throughout the courtroom, "Counselor, tell your client that she is well on her way to losing custody." And again in open court, when the judge gave CP a ten-minute tongue lashing that made me nearly wet myself (and I wasn't a party to the case).

Have I mentioned that she is now the Golden Uterus Formerly Known As Custodial Parent?

 

[wileybunch]

Posting an update:

After Dad sent a letter to Mom reiterating his plan to take time (vacation time on weekend plus schedule for 1/2 time in summer -- see posts #1&4 in this thread) and that there have been numerous violations of the CO and that he will have no choice but to return to court if there's another violation), he received the below letter from Mom.

The question here is:

Do you think any of what Mom has written should be responded to by DH? Or should he not respond to her letter and proceed to attempt to pick DD up Sat at 10AM as was planned for this coming weekend and if parenting time is denied proceed to file a contempt motion (see posts 1&4 in this thread)?

Mom's letter:

I am sorry to see that your only solution is to threaten me with contempt of court. Is that your answer for everything? Somehow I don't see a spirit of cooperation there. I think you should know that you have placed undo stress on DD. She is terrified that if we don't give in to your every whim, that her mom will go to jail. Do you really think that being a playground bully is healthy for her? Or you? I cannot give into this nonsense all the time. I am doing my best to follow every part of the decree to the best of my knowledge. I will admit some of it is vague and is open to interpretation. That is the very reason I agreed to meet with you.

For the record, I know that your wife was the author of the letter you sent with DD last night as there is NO WAY you had time to write it. I am sure you wouldn't have taken time out of your visitation to mess with this. DD said you were with her the entire time. Knowing that your wife wrote the letter might explain most of the erroneous accusations. I know she won't rest until I see jail time. It seems to be a real driving force for both of you. I am insisting that you do NOT send mail with DD anymore as she was extremely upset by it last night. We are not to use them as go betweens.

[NOTE: Dad has only recently sent this letter in a sealed envelope to DD. Mom has frequently sent letters through DD. Dad had the letter ready before DD came for visitation. We both spent time with DD throughout the entire time of the visit.]

I know you have been sending numerous emails, letters and sending information with DD as well. [Note: Not true -- that is her that does that.] However, it has been impossible for me to reply as none of them make sense. They are contradictory and confusing. She goes on to recount with some accuracy when he mentioned Memorial Day weekend and that he would have DD because he looked at the wrong holiday schedule. It was easily rectified when she pointed it out. She had also been confused, though, thinking she had Memorial Day AND 4th of July (turns out she had MD and he has the 4th). She went on to say, "It has been more than exhausting trying to keep up with you."

Once we straightened some of that out, you are now saying you are taking the 5th Weekend in May as part of your "summer vacation." Let's get this straight. It is NOT summer vacation yet. You do NOT have that weekend. It is NOT a holiday assigned to you. I informed yo in several conversations that she was NOT available. Dad, it does not have to be this difficult. You can not just keep taking any weekend you want because you "give me notice." The counselor STRONGLY ADVISED us to stick to the schedule. You have tried to break every rule set out there. You cannot try to grab every weekend... which according to YOUR schedule is 4 out of the next 5 weekends starting the 30th, and expect her to be available. It is obvious to everyone what you are trying to pull.
[Note: Dad had DD 2 out of 5 weekends in May, but 1st weekend she was on a choir trip. We went out of town to meet up with her and pick her up at end of choir trip Sat evening and had her until Sun evening. Dad also didn't have one of the weeknight visits b/c they are on Monday and Memorial Day was Monday. Under the summer schedule, in trying to give Mom all the time she had said she would have DD on vacation and that DD was babysitting for a coworker (which he just found out will be being done at Mom's house), he ends up with 3 weekends out of 4 in June, but one of them would be a partial weekend b/c she has girl's camp and comes home Sat at noon. Also, he really doubts the counselor encouraged her to deny Dad the additional summer parenting time, but he will confirm with counselor what he in fact said and what angle he's coming from. Counselor knows Mom's cunningness so is probably trying to reinforce to Mom that she needs to follow the court order and she has twisted what he said.]

One of the biggest problems is the fact you have NO common courtesy for us or DD. For you to assume she is always free is ridiculous. I told you repeatedly on the telephone that she was NOT available on the 30 of May. [Note: Mom only started to say this 2 weeks after Dad gave notice he would be taking that weekend as part of vacation time as quoted in previous posts. He never said he was taking it as part of "summer time" vacation as she's quoted him as saying. He literally quoted the court order's language for that and it's part of the school-year vacation time. ] You knew it was the only weekend from April to the middle of July that we were free to have her birthday party and soccer party. [Note: Mom made the claim to Dad previously that it was the only weekend between DD's 4/30 birthday and end of May to have her birthday party and she didn't want to make her wait any longer. There was never any mention of a soccer party. That came up on 5/17 weekend informed Dad she was having DD's soccer party at their house that weekend, too. She hadn't mentioned it the previous Sat when she called DH at 7:45AM to inform him of the need to have the b'day party that weekend.] I even invited you to the soccer party. [Note: That never happened.] Yet you screamed at me [Note: she likes to lie like this to make him appear like a loon] "She is only 13, what plans could she have?" That comment shows your complete ignorance about her activities and life. You stated in your letter that you told DD you would pick her up at 10AM on Saturday. She says you never said any such thing, nor did she agree to it. She said you asked her if her party would be done by 9 am, and she told you no. She told you it would probably go past noon. [Note: I was there -- DD did agree to a 10AM pick up time. And, notice even in Mom's false words, daughter said party would go until after noon -- daughter didn't say, "But I also have a soccer party at 4PM that day". And, to note, too, Mom's still saying Dad can't have DD at all that weekend. She simply refuses to let DH have any time that isn't specifically his 1st/3rd weekends and weeknight dinner date.] If you ever had a 13 year old daughter with friends for a sleepover, you would know they usually stay most of the next day.

I am asking you to stay away on Saturday the 30th. Please do not show up honking and humiliating DD at her 13th Birthday party. She would never forget it or forgive you for it. Please have some feelings for her emotions. She's not available then, period. If you would like to choose another weekend, feel free to check with DD and see when she's available. She will be happy to let you know. You are also welcome, as I said earlier, to come to the soccer party. It starts at 4 pm on Saturday, May 31st. We are asking parents to bring a side dish of your choice. I have no problem with you coming and being part of the party.

I also find it interesting that now, just because DD wants to take a summer job for a few weeks, you now want her every other week all summer. Having never asked once in 9 years, it's interesting you want her now. [Note: It hasn't been 9 years, but he did let her get away w/calling shots and violating order and taking whatever time she would allow, but when they went back to court last summer, he made it clear that he would be exercising all time per the CO and he has. He has not missed any time.] It seems to coincide with the fact you need a babysitter for wife's twins for the summer. [Note: Also not true. They are in year round school and for the weeks they have off during the summer, they already have a deposit paid for their spot in the same summer program they have gone to for past 4 summers.] I am sorry we disagree on the interpretation of the decree. You said it was my decree, that I should know what it means. [Note: Her attorney prepared it.] As far as I was informed, it meant you were allowed up to one half of the summer vacation, according to what you could fit into your schedule. If we can't agree, you will need to go to court to clarify it to spend with her, up to one half of the summer. I never interpreted it to mean that she was supposed to sit at your house, away from her family and friends and church activities all summer while you were at work. I don't believe that is in her best interest. And, if it matters at all to you, she doesn't want to. Counselor told me not to force her to do anything... i know he's told you the same thing. I have continue to tell you she is happy and willing to come for her weekends, scheduled holidays, and vacations. Why is that just never enough? For you to expect her to just to sit there for the principal of what you think it right, is silly. I will leave it up to her to decide. I can not force her to go week after week.

As for the babysitting job, I informed you as soon as we knew about it. She starts the week of June 9th and finishes July 18th, with the exception of Wed- Friday she's at camp, and the week of Vacation time that you have scheduled.

****
(continued ...)

 

[wileybunch]

As anyone that read this can see, this is totally out of control. During our phone conversation on Monday, May 12th, you and I both agreed to meet with the counselor to arrange the summer visitation. I told you we needed to work something out. I informed you I would not get into this email and letter writing war and I would only talk to you with the counselor present. You agreed and told me to call him and set the appointment, which I did the same day. [Note: DH said he agreed to go back to counseling to discuss issues, not specifically about the summer schedule. He doesn't believe that developing a schedule is an issue the counselor needs to solve ]Counselor then said he would call YOU and make sure you knew about the appointment. Conveniently, your wife took the message and you were never informed. [Note: I don't know when she called Counselor, but I called him to make an appt for my own family to deal w/issues with the twins and he returned my call to my work tel # about that and also told me that ex wanted an appt for a certain date/time and I told him we had something going on that night and that he needed to call DH to work out a date/time.] I rescheduled again, with you present, and you chose to miss that appointment as well. [Note: When we were leaving the appt we had for the twins, she was waiting in waiting room. We had already set a next appt for the twin issues after going over dates/times that would/wouldn't work. I proceeded to car w/twins and it seems that ex expected she was going to have an appt with DH -- maybe she hadn't been told by Counselor he couldn't make it. So they scheduled something with DH on spot for one of the dates/times we had just said wasn't good when scheduling for twins. DH did it off top of his head. He called Counselor next day and said that he needed it to be after that week b/c of prior commitments or it needed to be earlier in the day (which his ex doesn't seem to be able to do, either.] When you called to cancel you said "and next week doesn't look good, either." Our only hope of working out a schedule it to meet with a third party. I am willing to do that. In the mean time, as I said before, I'm not getting sucked into this obsessive behavior. Especially when I know I am not even addressing you. I am prepared to meet with you as soon as it's convenient for you. I will not respond to anything else until then. As far as I'm concerned, your next visit with DD is on Monday, June 2nd, followed by your weekend of the 7th and 8th. Please make a note that she will not be coming Monday, June 9th. You can pick her up on Fathers Day, JUNE 15TH at 9 am. That now gets us through to the 15th of June. Hopefully, between now and then you will find a convenient time to sit down like adults and straighten this out. I am taking DD and almost-18yoDS to see Counselor this evening. [Note: This will be DS's 1st appt finally w/a counselor alone -- but DH found out later he never did get into the session. It was supposed to be his session all along, scheduled for him, but Mom put 13yoDD in his place.] I will take his advice at to what he suggests with DD.

Also enclosed with that letter was this one:

Since writing the letter yesterday, DD has met with Counselor and the two of them are working out a plan. She will be sending you a schedule and then you and her can meet with Counselor to discuss.

DS never met with Counselor as older DD's appt took 2 hours and then 13yoDD was another 40 mins or so.

****

In a separate envelope addressed by hand by his 13yo DD, DH also got a schedule of May through August with notes written in by 13yo including Fri 5/30 b'day party sleepover, Sat 5/31 4PM soccer party, and then the summer schedule showing DH having 1st/3rd weekends and Mon PM "dinner dates" along with vacation w/Dad one week, vacation with Mom 3rd weekend in June, 1.5 week vacation w/Mom in Aug, and Father's Day just the Sunday vs. the whole weekend that Dad had planned on w/the summer schedule he gave Mom (and he made plans to go out of town that DD knows about). DD wrote on the bottom of Aug schedule:

* If you have any questions, call me.

Enclosed with that was a letter from Mom subject "Babysitting information":

DD will be babysitting for -- gives names/tel #'s.
Talks about schedule of which parent is dropping off/picking up (DD is babysitting at her mom's house). Mom said babysitting job is 6/9 for 6 weeks ending 7/18 (Mom had said it was for summer school which is over 7/3 -- DH doesn't know why dates are different.)

She also said:
DD will be addressing the other schedule with you. Counselor has asked she keep it between the two of you and if there were any problems to discuss he wants to meet with you and her. I am mailing that to you today.

 

[Humusluvr]

Wow. Mom sounds like she is living in an alternative universe.

So many contradictions. So many things we all know she shouldn't do. If your husband WERE to respond, it would be a heck of a letter.

Sounds like a return to court. bummer!

 

[proud_parent]

Wow. Déjà vu. My husband has several years worth of scattershot emails that read exactly like that, from "go ahead and take me to court", to "you need to understand that kiddo has activities that are more important than time with her dad", right down to "I'm just following the counselor's recommendations".

First, I would advise your husband to do everything he can to establish a rapport with the counselor. I have seen a former CP try this tactic of alienation using a therapist as a (perhaps unwitting) pawn. While it did not work out for CP as she had hoped (the judge made it absolutely clear that the counselor had NO authority to excuse the CP from the Court's order), the child did not benefit at all from sessions with the therapist, as they did not focus on the child's emotional health but rather on the skewed view of the child's health as painted (unilaterally) by CP.

Second, if he has not already, I would advise him to cease and desist sending any written communication via the child(ren). Stick to email and certified letter.

Third, I would advise him not to respond in writing to anything except the following:

I am asking you to stay away on Saturday the 30th. Please do not show up honking and humiliating DD at her 13th Birthday party. She would never forget it or forgive you for it. Please have some feelings for her emotions. She's not available then, period. If you would like to choose another weekend, feel free to check with DD and see when she's available. She will be happy to let you know. You are also welcome, as I said earlier, to come to the soccer party. It starts at 4 pm on Saturday, May 31st. We are asking parents to bring a side dish of your choice. I have no problem with you coming and being part of the party.

This bit concerns me, because Mom has set a trap for Dad. While I do not advocate him rolling over in the face of Mom's manipulation, Dad needs to handle the situation delicately because of the possible embarrassment and upset to DD. It won't serve her best interests for there to be a scene.

If I were in your DH's shoes, I'd think seriously about switching the weekend of the birthday party. I would propose one or two alternate dates and not leave it up to CP (and ABSOLUTELY not up to daughter) to suggest them. I would state that it is inappropriate to involve a child in any discussion of visitation or custody, and that he will therefore deal only with CP on this matter. I would conclude by requesting a response no later than 'X' day and time, else he will be exercising his parenting time as ordered.

If CP forces the big showdown, Dad should play it as low key as possible: i.e., show up dressed casually, with present in hand, as if he were invited to the party. Announce to CP (quietly, cheerfully, and if possible away from onlookers) that he is there to pick up kiddo for scheduled parenting time. If CP refuses, hand her kiddo's present and walk away silently...and then file petition for contempt first thing Monday. Let the partygoers wonder why kiddo's Mom would turn her own Dad away from her 13th birthday party.

 

[mommyof4]

I would just let the summons to court be the response to that novel.

And in no way at any time should Dad contact his 13 year old child to work out a compromise.

 

[Humusluvr]

If I were in your DH's shoes, I'd think seriously about switching the weekend of the birthday party. I would propose one or two alternate dates and not leave it up to CP (and ABSOLUTELY not up to daughter) to suggest them. I would state that it is inappropriate to involve a child in any discussion of visitation or custody, and that he will therefore deal only with CP on this matter. I would conclude by requesting a response no later than 'X' day and time, else he will be exercising his parenting time as ordered.

If CP forces the big showdown, Dad should play it as low key as possible: i.e., show up dressed casually, with present in hand, as if he were invited to the party. Announce to CP (quietly, cheerfully, and if possible away from onlookers) that he is there to pick up kiddo for scheduled parenting time. If CP refuses, hand her kiddo's present and walk away silently...and then file petition for contempt first thing Monday. Let the partygoers wonder why kiddo's Mom would turn her own Dad away from her 13th birthday party.

I think that would absolutely be a mature way to handle things.

email mom that DH will be there to pick up daughter on 30th as was advised to mom in DH's original email. Don't be threatening or sound "mean," just matter of fact. "I will be there at ____ time."

Good luck!

 

[Humusluvr]

I would just let the summons to court be the response to that novel.

And in no way at any time should Dad contact his 13 year old child to work out a compromise.

Agreed. Dad KNOWS its between mom and dad only, and mom SAYS she knows its between mom and dad only - but she sure doesn't practice what she preaches!