evolution

[CdwJava]

Just to follow your logic - if your issue with teaching evolution stems from the fact that is a"theory" and not a "fact", then where do you stand on say, gravity, Atomic Theory or even the Pythagorean Theorem? Son can't go to science or math classes either?

Not the same point ... there is not a competing faith based argument (that I am aware of) that can be considered to conflict with mathematical theorems.

It is not the "theory" that many oppose, it is the belief that evolution does not hold ALL the answers and that it is taught without concern for alternative faith based theories that may have some value to many. I have no problem with my children learning about evolution. They also know the stories of the Bible and understand God's hand in all that has gone before. It is when those who teach evolution deny the hand of God or openly preach against His intervention that many of us are offended. I do not ask that teachers present creationism in the classroom - though it would be nice - but to ask a teacher to present creationism properly would require that teacher be founded in the underlying principles behind it, and many are just not up to the task.

If creationism were touched on in the classroom, I would be just as concerned about how the government presented it as I am about how history in general is presented- and even the Constitution. Textbooks do few important subjects justice, and teachers rarely have enough time to dwell long on those subjects that do deserve more open discussion.

 

[tranquility]

Let's be clear, the modern American school system teaches a LOT of things designed for indoctrination to certain points of view. Tolerance education, the showing of Gore's film, a changing of the focus in history from the leaders who moved it towards the people of the time, lots of things. Agree or no with the particular "fact" being taught, you can't disagree there is certainly a point of view behind much of the school day.

"Evolution" has many faces. How it is taught and what, exactly, is taught are certainly relevant. To say it is scientific fact is a lie. There are many provable and replicable facts within the theory and which can be determined by following the scientific method, true. But, there are some leaps there which are no less faith-based than the probable beliefs of the OP. Few here can actually argue those points as we don't know nearly enough. We base our opinion on the reliance of experts. Experts who supposedly have tested their beliefs against other experts in the disinfecting light of debate. Yet, like us all, experts bring bias to the table. I suspect some of that bias is what the OP objects to.

Anytime someone tells me the science is "settled", I doubt them. Heck, there's been some quantum mechanics math and a physical experiment which came out last month "proving" the General Theory of Relativity wrong. Not some crackpot either. There has been some increasing doubt as to the Special Theory of Relativity of late too. But, I'm not ever going to know beyond reliance on others. I can do calculus, a little, but I can't do the math those guys are doing.

Evolution as taught in school below college is more of a social studies thing then a physical science thing. What is it that is being taught that is "fact" that couldn't take more than an hour or two? Don't kid yourself as to the point of the focus on evolution for the time it's being taught.

 

[dnjsmom]

I did not mean to start a debate on weather creation or evelution is fact. I can see how that would happen though. I do not appriciate getting beat down for asking a straight forward question, however I should have expected it.

Sifting through the haterd this is what I am getting. The school decides what is taught even if I disagree. I have the option of home schooling him if I deem that to be best.

Can I home school him for one class period and only during this section? If you have not been here and done that or know the answer you dont need to respond.

I wasn't planning on giving this back ground but since this spiraled into a debate I might as well complicate it.
My child has special needs. He has a developmental disability but is in general ed classes. He believes in the Bible as the truth. He tries to ask questions in class about how to reconcile his beliefs to evelution theory. The teachers hands are tied by law to only answer questions on the premise that evelution is fact. This is confussing to my son. He has just started in general ed classes and an argument between him and his teacher could end up with him back in special ed. which he doesn't want and neither do we, his parents or the school because that will cost them more money that isn't in the special ed funding.

 

[mommyof4]

Just to follow your logic - if your issue with teaching evolution stems from the fact that is a"theory" and not a "fact", then where do you stand on say, gravity, Atomic Theory or even the Pythagorean Theorem? Son can't go to science or math classes either?

The point being that the theory of gravity, the atomic theory and the pythagorean Theorem are taught as just that....THEORY.

 

[Some Random Guy]

Can I home school him for one class period and only during this section? If you have not been here and done that or know the answer you dont need to respond.

No. If you want to talk to the school about excusing him from that section, go for it. But formal home schooling is an all or nothing affair. He is either enrolled in the school or not and they will grade him according to their rules.

 

[You Are Guilty]

Carl,

My only point, echoed by at least one other person here, is that all schools teach a variety of things that are not "scientific fact" and which have nothing to do with religious-based beliefs. IMO, objecting to the learning process, merely on the basis of whether something is "fact" or "theory", is counterproductive. You cannot hide from learning about gravity, why hide from learning what people mean when they say "evolution"? Arguably, no student is being taught that they not only have to learn what evolution is, but also that they must believe in it. (At least, I hope they are not).

There are a great many things in life that we all will disagree with to varying degrees. People who will use that as an excuse not to learn about those things do themselves a disservice. ("Knowledge is power" and all.) To take evolution as our example, how can a creationist be expected to credibly argue against evolutionary theory if they do not know what the basic tenets of evolution are? If for no other reason, creationists should want to learn what evolutionists claim, so that they can counter those claims. To do otherwise is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and engaging in a I'm-right-you're-wrong "argument". Everyone gets pissed off, no one changes their mind and certainly, no one learns anything.

But I digress. My apologies My point is I think that any parent would have a difficult time convincing a school to do what out OP here requested. It opens the door to a slippery slope.

 

[CdwJava]

I did not mean to start a debate on weather creation or evelution is fact. I can see how that would happen though. I do not appriciate getting beat down for asking a straight forward question, however I should have expected it.

No, you should not have expected it. Such a response was out of line, and not what I thought was in Banned Princess's character.

Sifting through the haterd this is what I am getting. The school decides what is taught even if I disagree. I have the option of home schooling him if I deem that to be best.

Yes you do. And if you were in CA you would be among a growing number of parents making that decision. We may be homeschooling all of our children next year less for the indoctrination or content than for the lack of attention to the needs of the students and the generally mediocre response we are getting from their teachers (and the class sizes exceeding 30-36 kids per classroom).

Can I home school him for one class period and only during this section? If you have not been here and done that or know the answer you dont need to respond.

This is a question to ask the school district. I strongly suspect that the logistics of picking up and dropping him off after 45 minutes would be prohibitive, plus, I suspect that very little real instruction could be don by you in that short a period of time. And, I suspect the school has no method to account for that time. Additionally, since the life sciences are likely a core class necessary for passing, you would need to jump through a lot of hoops to get whatever it is YOU were teaching him to be accredited so that he could receive a passing grade. I suspect that it is not worth the effort unless you home school him entirely.

My child has special needs. He has a developmental disability but is in general ed classes. He believes in the Bible as the truth. He tries to ask questions in class about how to reconcile his beliefs to evelution theory. The teachers hands are tied by law to only answer questions on the premise that evelution is fact. This is confussing to my son. He has just started in general ed classes and an argument between him and his teacher could end up with him back in special ed. which he doesn't want and neither do we, his parents or the school because that will cost them more money that isn't in the special ed funding.

You might seriously consider home schooling him, then. If his own needs are such that he cannot adequately evaluate or deal with the conflicting ideas presented to him in the government schools, then you may need to home school him. If the law is similar in WA as it is here,even if home schooled, the local district or county must still provide special ed services if required. For instance, when one of my sons was attending a Catholic school, the local school district had to provide special ed services for an auditory processing problem even though he was not a student in the public schools.

Ultimately, you need to decide on a placement that will benefit him and his education. If he is frustrated and conflicted, then that is not likely the environment for him.

 

[mommyof4]

Carl,

My only point, echoed by at least one other person here, is that all schools teach a variety of things that are not "scientific fact" and which have nothing to do with religious-based beliefs. IMO, objecting to the learning process, merely on the basis of whether something is "fact" or "theory", is counterproductive. You cannot hide from learning about gravity, why hide from learning what people mean when they say "evolution"? Arguably, no student is being taught that they not only have to learn what evolution is, but also that they must believe in it. (At least, I hope they are not).

I'm obviously not Carl, so excuse me, please.

That IS the problem with the whole 'evolution' issue. It is being taught in many schools as settled scientific fact as opposed to an ever evolving theory.

There are a great many things in life that we all will disagree with to varying degrees. People who will use that as an excuse not to learn about those things do themselves a disservice. ("Knowledge is power" and all.) To take evolution as our example, how can a creationist be expected to credibly argue against evolutionary theory if they do not know what the basic tenets of evolution are? If for no other reason, creationists should want to learn what evolutionists claim, so that they can counter those claims. To do otherwise is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and engaging in a I'm-right-you're-wrong "argument". Everyone gets pissed off, no one changes their mind and certainly, no one learns anything.

But I digress. My apologies My point is I think that any parent would have a difficult time convincing a school to do what out OP here requested. It opens the door to a slippery slope.

Completely agree with this point. Hence, my first response to the OP.

 

[tranquility]

Here's an evolution we can all believe in.

http://laphamsquarterly.org/visual/Spring2010Map.png

 

[dnjsmom]

I'm not running from the theory of evelution. I want my son to understand what others believe. I just dont want him to be taught that a theory is a fact. I want him to be educated not indoctrinated.
I have decided to pull him from the section on evelution. I will teach him the theory from home. He will go back to science class with the understanding the evelution is what some people believe to be fact like some people don't believe that there is a God who created the world and all in it.

I hope that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. If not that is your choice in a "free" country.

 

[You Are Guilty]

That IS the problem with the whole 'evolution' issue. It is being taught in many schools as settled scientific fact as opposed to an ever evolving theory.

I did not attend school in CA, but if this is in fact correct, then the problem goes well beyond the OP's child. I would imagine there are a rather large number of concerned parents who could be convinced to make a "joint" request to the school to clarify their curriculum. Such requests when made by a Lone Parent are easy to ignore. When they come from Parents of Half the Class, not so much.

 

[CdwJava]

Carl,

My only point, echoed by at least one other person here, is that all schools teach a variety of things that are not "scientific fact" and which have nothing to do with religious-based beliefs. IMO, objecting to the learning process, merely on the basis of whether something is "fact" or "theory", is counterproductive. You cannot hide from learning about gravity, why hide from learning what people mean when they say "evolution"? Arguably, no student is being taught that they not only have to learn what evolution is, but also that they must believe in it. (At least, I hope they are not).

There are a great many things in life that we all will disagree with to varying degrees. People who will use that as an excuse not to learn about those things do themselves a disservice. ("Knowledge is power" and all.) To take evolution as our example, how can a creationist be expected to credibly argue against evolutionary theory if they do not know what the basic tenets of evolution are? If for no other reason, creationists should want to learn what evolutionists claim, so that they can counter those claims. To do otherwise is akin to sticking your fingers in your ears and engaging in a I'm-right-you're-wrong "argument". Everyone gets pissed off, no one changes their mind and certainly, no one learns anything.

But I digress. My apologies My point is I think that any parent would have a difficult time convincing a school to do what out OP here requested. It opens the door to a slippery slope.

I understand the process, and I also understand the "theory" on both ends of the scientific equation. The fact that some do not - and those whack jobs are the ones that get quoted most often by the evolution-at-all-costs crowd - is not something those of us with greater than basic reasoning skills can control.

To insult a poster's heartfelt beliefs simply because one does not believe them is simply wrong. Banned did just that. Her post was beyond insulting to me and, I am sure, to many others here.

In my state we are being assaulted with statist, new age cultural views that are pervading the classroom. In a few short years textbooks will have to remove references to "mommy" and "daddy" and supplant these with gender neutral terms such as "caregiver" and similar terms. There are a litany of assaults occurring against faith-based values in this state and a continued slashing of important historical references involving everything from the importance of faith to the early settlers and the values of the Founding Fathers, to the importance of the Constitution. My son's 8th grade textbook had two pages on the Constitution itself ... and some 30 pages on the Civil Rights movement. Why the inequity?

This is a sensitive subject for many parents out here in my state, and I am sure, in other states. Private faith-based institutions will continue to grow in this country. And with the increased intrusion of the state into our lives I believe we will see more and more parents placing their children in schools that tend to provide a much better education dollar-for-dollar.

This is especially sad when you consider that my wife is a public school teacher, and I intend to retire one day and get back into teaching (but at the college level). By the time I do that, I may have to keep my mouth shut about my values even at college, I am afraid.

Anyway, I digress ... my apologies.

 

[CdwJava]

I want him to be educated not indoctrinated.

Ditto!!!

I have decided to pull him from the section on evelution. I will teach him the theory from home. He will go back to science class with the understanding the evelution is what some people believe to be fact like some people don't believe that there is a God who created the world and all in it.

I hope that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. If not that is your choice in a "free" country.

Ditto again!

 

[CdwJava]

I did not attend school in CA, but if this is in fact correct, then the problem goes well beyond the OP's child. I would imagine there are a rather large number of concerned parents who could be convinced to make a "joint" request to the school to clarify their curriculum. Such requests when made by a Lone Parent are easy to ignore. When they come from Parents of Half the Class, not so much.

In CA we have gone away from local control of the schools- the curriculum is provided by the state. Further, schools are evaluated based upon STATE testing, not by local guidelines. Local rules and priorities mean absolutely nothing here. If your school does not score appropriately in the state testing, you run the risk of getting the school taken over BY the state due to a failure to perform. So, as a result, teachers teach to the test and not to the needs of the students.

This is the state of education in CA and why, as I posted, so many parents here are looking to opt out of the state indoctrination system. And, it is why we are seriously considering withdrawing or children from public school. The only reason we may NOT withdraw them is that two of our sons excel in certain sports, and if they have a hope to go to a good college, they will need scholarships that sports - as well as academics - might provide. In the meantime, we have to spend ("we" being mostly my wife as I am gone most afternoons and evenings) a great deal of time filling in the education gaps for even the basics of math and English that teachers do not have the time for ... through no real fault of their own, mind you.

 

[You Are Guilty]

In my state we are being assaulted with statist, new age cultural views that are pervading the classroom. ...

Not just the classroom, we here on the Right Coast think your courts are crazy too (On the other hand, there's always room on the subway for two more. Ever thought about moving?)

And to be clear, I wasn't defending Banned's comments at all.