Concerns about CPS and school!

[LdiJ]

While I am no longer in the field, the OP's whole post, in my experience, sets off bells and buzzers all over the place. I don't care if this woman is a licensed social worker, a licensed psychiatrist, a family court judge,whatever!

It sounds exactly like the convoluted 'not my fault' and 'fix it after the fact' and 'we are so blameless, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't understand and just let us give our excuses before carrying it further!'type of story that I used to hear used in cases of actual abuse. Where, for example, the child had been punished in some way by rubbing strong soap in the genital region, perhaps for what her parents thought was inappropriate exploration, or for refusing to do what daddy and mommie wanted her to do, horrid thoughts!

The whole scenario of daddy cleaning her genitals in the shower with the door open (he always leaves the door open!) so that mom could witness the whole event, the child insisting on sitting on the commode rubbing herself till she bled....Oh come on! This reeks! I hope CPS follows through in every way possible.

I actually find the scenario very plausible. We didn't have gentle body washes and things like that when I was a child, we had just soap. I can remember numerous times having my private parts burning after a bath (from washing myself without any help) and I remember doing a lot of rubbing of the burning area too.

An eraser sized spot of blood from such rubbing wouldn't surprise me either.

Mom's over-reaction to the whole thing doesn't surprise me all that much either. Its got to be pretty terrifying to have your child taken. As a LSW mom is likely used to doing the investigating, which explains her point of view to a great extent.

I know that LSWs in our school district make home visits and do quite a bit of investigating when there are suspected problems.

Nevertheless, I think that mom is not grasping at all the that nurse is a mandated reporter and had no choice but to handle it the way that she did. It would have been completely improper for the nurse to contact mom when such classic signs of potential abuse existed.

 

[stealth2]

The whole scenario of daddy cleaning her genitals in the shower with the door open (he always leaves the door open!) so that mom could witness the whole event, the child insisting on sitting on the commode rubbing herself till she bled....Oh come on! This reeks! I hope CPS follows through in every way possible.

I have to say that I don't understand the whole "strong" soap thing. When mine were infants? Yes, I used Johnson's baby soap. But by 4-5? We were using the same soap for them and us. Depending on what was a good deal, Ivory, Lever, etc. And neither of my kids (each gender) had an issue with burning. Certainly nothing to the level of anguish and excessive rubbing of their genitals. So I have to wonder what sort of soap was actually used.

And ya know... I find it interesting that Mom had enough concern to make sure the door was open when Dad bathed the 5yo. You either trust Dad or you don't.

If it all comes back as an innocent occurrence? GREAT! But... what if something WERE to be wrong? Well done, school nurse.

 

[tln6801]

Child never stated that "MOMMY" hurt her....Daughter should have been allowed to have her MOMMY by her side for support!!!
Innocent people also have the right in this counrty to protest, loudly and visciously if they so choose, when falsley accused.

 

[cyjeff]

Child never stated that "MOMMY" hurt her....Daughter should have been allowed to have her MOMMY by her side for support!!!

That is not the case.

Innocent people also have the right in this counrty to protest, loudly and visciously if they so choose, when falsley accused.

Agreed.

 

[in1christy]

Lever 2000 was the soap that was used. My husband has always left the door open when bathing daughter from the beginning to prevent this type of situation. I did not tell my husband to leave the door open. I trust my husband, he did not do anything.

In fact CPS returned my daughter the same night, it is not an issues of sex abuse.

What also angers me is that the nurse to not stop to think about the implications of her actions upon the child and the family, which is why social worker are trained to do assessments. As as social worker again I would have ruled out medical issues 1st and if there were significant signs of abuse the doctor would then have reported.

 

[Perky]

A good clinical assessment is very detailed.

The clinical indicators that were presented to the nurse were a child stating there was blood in her panties and burning upon urination. The possible causes:
UTI, masturbation, injury to vagina, undiagnosed medical problem, and sexual abuse.

As a clinical social worker you rule out medical problems first. I would refer to a doctor who at that point if found there was trauma would become the mandatory reporter.

School nurse cannot diagnose. She could not rule out UTI she should have referred out to a medical doctor. She went above and beyond her scope of practice to consider sexual abuse as the 1st alternative.

If she wants to have students and parents trust her, she needs to consider other things.

I totally understand mandated reporting. My clinical assessment skills teach me that I must assess before jumping to conclusions and that means that I refer out when something is beyond my scope of practice. I cannot diagnose a UTI, I would refer out.

I have been in touch with the State President of the NASW and she is in complete agreement, that the nurse went above and beyond her scope of practice in not referring out, when you 1st are to consider a medical problem. Pediatrician stated that same thing to me. She would consider medical problem before abuse.

If my daughter had gone to the school nurse and said "I have blood in my underwear, and it hurts to pee, and my daddy hurt me." Then I would have no qulams about the nurses actions. This is not what happened. My daughter went to the teacher and said "I had blood in my underwear yesterday. It hurts when I pee." She told the same thing to the nurse. The nurse checked her underwear. No blood on Friday.

No clinical indicators of abuse upon those two things.

Again if the 5 year old child has said "Daddy hurt me at beginning of assessment without questioning and ruling out medical conditions 1st I would not be angry with the school nurse.

I would also have been less angry if the nurse called or some school personel called and said we have concerns about your child and feel we need to report this to CPS. No such phone call, I get a phone call stating that CPS has my child.

Oh, by the way did based upon the research I have done each state receives money based upon the number of children in need of services, mandatory reports open a child in need of services case. Indiana is one of the highest right now in the number of children removed from homes.

So, does your daughter's school have a doctor on staff, as well as a nurse? How would the school nurse have "referred out"????

And this is SO wrong: "She went above and beyond her scope of practice to consider sexual abuse as the 1st alternative."

You've lost all credibility with me, and I find it difficult to believe that you've been in contact the State President of the NASW, unless a personal friend, on a weekend.

 

[LdiJ]

Lever 2000 was the soap that was used. My husband has always left the door open when bathing daughter from the beginning to prevent this type of situation. I did not tell my husband to leave the door open. I trust my husband, he did not do anything.

In fact CPS returned my daughter the same night, it is not an issues of sex abuse.

What also angers me is that the nurse to not stop to think about the implications of her actions upon the child and the family, which is why social worker are trained to do assessments. As as social worker again I would have ruled out medical issues 1st and if there were significant signs of abuse the doctor would then have reported.

You have referral options as a social worker that a school nurse does not have. A school nurse cannot send your child to a doctor for evaluation. CPS (to whom the school nurse is mandated to report) has those options. Your child was returned to you the same day.

The school nurse honestly did what she was REQUIRED to do. A school nurse is not permitted to think about the implications of her actions on the family. A school nurse is a mandated reporter who MUST report signs of abuse.

 

[stealth2]

Lever 2000 was the soap that was used. [/QUOTE

Then I don't buy the whole "burning" issue. Lever2000 should be fine for a 5yo.

 

[cyjeff]

My husband has always left the door open when bathing daughter from the beginning to prevent this type of situation.

This is a VERY troubling statement.

What also angers me is that the nurse to not stop to think about the implications of her actions upon the child and the family, which is why social worker are trained to do assessments.

Again... what part of mandatory reporting is slipping past you?

As for the last, I sincerely hope that you don't ignore possible abuse until you have "done an assessment"... thereby leaving a child in danger until you finish the paperwork.

As as social worker again I would have ruled out medical issues 1st and if there were significant signs of abuse the doctor would then have reported.

You cannot rule out medical issues. You are not a doctor.

You are, instead, a mandatory reporter of abuse. This does not give you ANY wiggle room as to whom you report and whom you do not.

Please provide me with the name and title of the NASW official you contacted over the weekend that says differently.

 

[mistoffolees]

A good clinical assessment is very detailed.

The clinical indicators that were presented to the nurse were a child stating there was blood in her panties and burning upon urination. The possible causes:
UTI, masturbation, injury to vagina, undiagnosed medical problem, and sexual abuse.

As a clinical social worker you rule out medical problems first. I would refer to a doctor who at that point if found there was trauma would become the mandatory reporter.

School nurse cannot diagnose. She could not rule out UTI she should have referred out to a medical doctor. She went above and beyond her scope of practice to consider sexual abuse as the 1st alternative.

You are wrong.

The nurse has a legal obligation to report if she thinks that there is a real chance that abuse has occurred. It is NOT correct to assume that the nurse only reports if abuse is the 1st alternative.

Child never stated that "MOMMY" hurt her....Daughter should have been allowed to have her MOMMY by her side for support!!!

Maybe, maybe not. If abuse was occurring and Mommy let it happen without doing anything, then Mommy is equally guilty.

The nurse did nothing wrong here.

 

[gr8rn]

This is a VERY troubling statement.



Again... what part of mandatory reporting is slipping past you?

As for the last, I sincerely hope that you don't ignore possible abuse until you have "done an assessment"... thereby leaving a child in danger until you finish the paperwork.



You cannot rule out medical issues. You are not a doctor.

You are, instead, a mandatory reporter of abuse. This does not give you ANY wiggle room as to whom you report and whom you do not.

Please provide me with the name and title of the NASW official you contacted over the weekend that says differently.

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto.

What he said.

 

[CJane]

I have to say that I don't understand the whole "strong" soap thing. When mine were infants? Yes, I used Johnson's baby soap. But by 4-5? We were using the same soap for them and us. Depending on what was a good deal, Ivory, Lever, etc. And neither of my kids (each gender) had an issue with burning. Certainly nothing to the level of anguish and excessive rubbing of their genitals. So I have to wonder what sort of soap was actually used.

The whole scenario is bizarre to me. I can see a burning sensation if soap makes contact with particularly sensitive skin - or broken skin. However, Mom's description of events is off to me.

I could here all that went on because he keeps the bathroom door open when he bathes her and the room is right across from the nursery and the monitor was on.

So, I don't "get" the need to help a 5 year old with her shower unless there's an existing condition which requires that particular attention be paid to certain things. Mom has not indicated that child is delayed in any manner (other than the finger sensation issue), nor that there are any health concerns.

I can see Dad sitting in the bathroom with kiddo while she showers, making sure she actually uses soap/body wash, checking to make sure she's rinsed her hair thoroughly, etc. But actually being the one to wash her genitals? That's bizarre, no matter how you look at it.

Sarah was screaming because the soap burned. She insisted on sitting on the potty with toliet paper and kept rubbing the area.

This seems like a really dramatic reaction to the burning that soap can cause when it's in contact with sensitive tissues. Mom says child was screaming due to the pain. That's either pretty intense pain, or an outlandish reaction. And the rubbing of the area was likely exacerbating the pain, not making it better.

I went upstairs and by that time my husband had run water into the tub in hopes of getting Sarah into the tub to rinse her. Sarah finally got into the tub and I rinsed her really well.

It seems strange to me that rather than rinse the child with running water - which would alleviate the pain, both due to the "action" of the water, and because it would more thoroughly rinse the area than soaking - Dad filled the tub and Mom had to convince the child to get back in it, and then "rinse her really well."

And yet, after this thorough rinsing/soaking/etc, child still had blood in her underwear the next morning. Which indicates that child either continued to bleed, or continued to have pain resulting in "rubbing" overnight.

Child was then still experiencing enough pain two days later, that she went to the teacher and nurse with her issues.

And... Mom has a very clear and very detailed "memory" of exactly what happened when 1) she wasn't in the room and 2) the events didn't seem all that big of a deal to her. How many people remember such exact details of incidental events? I'm not saying it sounds made up... I'm saying it sounds as if it's been heavily discussed and dissected after the fact by the parents.

We have, according to Mom, the whole story of what happened, and WE think it sounds weird. The NURSE didn't have nearly the same amount of information. All she had was a child complaining of genital bleeding and pain. When asked if she'd been injured - which is an absolutely appropriate question - the child responded that yes, her daddy had.

What's also disturbing to me is Mom's absolute dismissal of any concerns anyone else has. She'd rather that someone assumed that the child had an undiagnosed UTI (despite no mention of a history of such, or apparent concern on mom's part that kiddo might have one), or that child had injured herself.

 

[gr8rn]

A good clinical assessment is very detailed.

The clinical indicators that were presented to the nurse were a child stating there was blood in her panties and burning upon urination. The possible causes:
UTI, masturbation, injury to vagina, undiagnosed medical problem, and sexual abuse.

As a clinical social worker you rule out medical problems first. I would refer to a doctor who at that point if found there was trauma would become the mandatory reporter.

School nurse cannot diagnose. She could not rule out UTI she should have referred out to a medical doctor. She went above and beyond her scope of practice to consider sexual abuse as the 1st alternative.

If she wants to have students and parents trust her, she needs to consider other things.

I totally understand mandated reporting. My clinical assessment skills teach me that I must assess before jumping to conclusions and that means that I refer out when something is beyond my scope of practice. I cannot diagnose a UTI, I would refer out.

I have been in touch with the State President of the NASW and she is in complete agreement, that the nurse went above and beyond her scope of practice in not referring out, when you 1st are to consider a medical problem. Pediatrician stated that same thing to me. She would consider medical problem before abuse.

If my daughter had gone to the school nurse and said "I have blood in my underwear, and it hurts to pee, and my daddy hurt me." Then I would have no qulams about the nurses actions. This is not what happened. My daughter went to the teacher and said "I had blood in my underwear yesterday. It hurts when I pee." She told the same thing to the nurse. The nurse checked her underwear. No blood on Friday.

No clinical indicators of abuse upon those two things.

Again if the 5 year old child has said "Daddy hurt me at beginning of assessment without questioning and ruling out medical conditions 1st I would not be angry with the school nurse.

I would also have been less angry if the nurse called or some school personel called and said we have concerns about your child and feel we need to report this to CPS. No such phone call, I get a phone call stating that CPS has my child.

Oh, by the way did based upon the research I have done each state receives money based upon the number of children in need of services, mandatory reports open a child in need of services case. Indiana is one of the highest right now in the number of children removed from homes.

There is so much wrong with what you have said. After re-reading your entire post, the whole situation sounds highly edited. Of course, I agree that the incident was "probably" innocent, but the way you have ranted here, Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

As far as you being in touch with the president of the NASW, on a weekend yet, well around here, I believe that is called the OG effect.

I agree with cyjeff. If you believe that a mandated reporter is supposed to investigate, and "refer out", and that investigation includes talking to the potential abuser, then you have possibly put hundreds if not thousands of children at risk. You have not done your job, and if I had your name, I would report you to your state licensing board.

You need to go back to your superiors and ask for re-education regarding mandated reporting and what that process entails.

 

[in1christy]

First off I asked for advice not opinions and judgements. I have been totally honest.

I know what happened. If there was any possibility that our situation was abuse my daughter would have been removed from the home. She was not.

As a clinical social worker yes, I have obligation to report suspected child abuse. Again based upon the information I would not. Because it appeared to be a UTI. The nurse went on to question and then that is when my daughter said "Daddy hurt her." Yes, as a social worker I could have done the same thing and questioned the kids regarding sexual abuse, but that is not always the case in which case you have traumatized the child and family and caused a difficult working relationship where trust has been broken. I have worked in schools and when we had a similar situation I spoke with the parents about concerns about a medical condition. I told the parents that the child had to be seen by the doctor and the doctor had to send us a written report. It was documented in the child's chart that I kept at the school and in the nurses office. We covered our butts and if the child had not returned back to school with a doctor's note

Not all instances are sexual abuse. I am not saying that sexual abuse does not occur, because I know it does, I have worked with kids who were being sexually abused and have had to report it. As a social worker I am trained not to assume the worst case situation 1st. Which is why it so important to refer out and document when a case could be a medical condition.

 

[in1christy]

My posts have not been edited!!!