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Could this impact the divorce/custody?

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Bali Hai

Senior Member
Wow. Just wow.

I'm grumpy due to Gov Rick Scott veto'ing the alimony reform bill last night.


This situation is exactly why reform is needed in states that have long term alimony statutes on the books.
The Gov knows alimony reform will swell the welfare rolls and burden tax payers, jeopardizing his political career. He knows reform is the RIGHT thing, and vetoed for the WRONG reason. Afterall people collecting alimony vote too along with tax payers, and, there are alot of them in NJ.

As long as indentured servitude is acceptable, you and I will be slaves of the state. That's what we get for being responsible (and stupid).

Hang in there tuffbrk.
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
You have said this numerous times. Just what does "gets kicked to the curb mean"?
Kicked to the curb, means their spouses chose to divorce them even though they were completely disabled and unable to support themselves. A good example would be someone with very advanced MS, or Huntingtons, Parkinsons, Alzheimers. etc.
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
Kicked to the curb, means their spouses chose to divorce them even though they were completely disabled and unable to support themselves. A good example would be someone with very advanced MS, or Huntingtons, Parkinsons, Alzheimers. etc.
So quite frankly people should stay in a bad, loveless marriage because their spouse is completely disabled or unable to support themself? That makes sense. Or should only a disabled spouse be able to file for divorce?What if the disabled spouse has committed adultery? Or is a drug addict or alcoholic?
 
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LdiJ

Senior Member
So quite frankly people should stay in a bad, loveless marriage because their spouse is completely disabled or unable to support themself? That makes sense. Or should only a disabled spouse be able to file for divorce?What if the disabled spouse has committed adultery? Or is a drug addict or alcoholic?
Huh?...where did I remotely say any of that?
 

Bali Hai

Senior Member
Kicked to the curb, means their spouses chose to divorce them even though they were completely disabled and unable to support themselves. A good example would be someone with very advanced MS, or Huntingtons, Parkinsons, Alzheimers. etc.
Whew! I feel better now. I was thinking kicked to the curb meant that a spouse who chose to divorce the other was kicking them to the curb for whatever reason (such as for a younger model) and alimony would be warranted out of vengeance.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
So quite frankly people should stay in a bad, loveless marriage because their spouse is completely disabled or unable to support themself? That makes sense. Or should only a disabled spouse be able to file for divorce?What if the disabled spouse has committed adultery? Or is a drug addict or alcoholic?
There was that whole "For better or for worse...until death do us part" thing. That is why you should only marry someone you cannot live without, rather than someone you can just live with.:cool:
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Whew! I feel better now. I was thinking kicked to the curb meant that a spouse who chose to divorce the other was kicking them to the curb for whatever reason (such as for a younger model) and alimony would be warranted out of vengeance.
I don't think that alimony, whether its short term or long term should ever be ordered out of vengence. It should be ordered based on valid fairness and equity.

I have another example which is different. I have a client who makes a great deal of money and prefers that his wife not work. He would rather see her enhancing his family's reputation by doing volunteer and charitable work. Therefore she has amassed no social security credits and the only potential job skills she has are unofficial ones based on the volunteer and charitable work she has done. However, she is young enough that she still has time for a career should they divorce. In that instance, I think she would deserve alimony long enough to get an education and start a career. She is abiding by the "contract" between the two of them regarding their marriage.
 

Bali Hai

Senior Member
I don't think that alimony, whether its short term or long term should ever be ordered out of vengence. It should be ordered based on valid fairness and equity.

Both these terms have different meanings to different people.

I have another example which is different. I have a client who makes a great deal of money and prefers that his wife not work. He would rather see her enhancing his family's reputation by doing volunteer and charitable work. Therefore she has amassed no social security credits and the only potential job skills she has are unofficial ones based on the volunteer and charitable work she has done. However, she is young enough that she still has time for a career should they divorce. In that instance, I think she would deserve alimony long enough to get an education and start a career.

I'm sure she has factored that in her decision to be submissive and letting him cut his own throat. Who says she has to get an education and career?

She is abiding by the "contract" between the two of them regarding their marriage.
Did you explain to the client that if he were kicked to the curb for a druggie rock hound, he may be ordered to support her and in effect the rock hound's drug habit too?

Life is great until something goes sour.
 

tuffbrk

Senior Member
You know, I sympathize with your situation and your point of view, but there are at least a few situations where long term alimony is valid. Think about a truly permanently disabled spouse who truly cannot work and gets kicked to the curb. Yes, maybe they qualify for SSDI, but maybe only for 900.00 a month. I see long term alimony being valid there.
I appreciate that Ld. However, no one in the reform movement is arguing that there are times it is valid.

In the FL reform bill, as well as our current NJ reform bill, discretion is still allowed. I agree that there are elderly women who may have been the stay at home mom as that was the societal norm of the times and if they have not remarried and are not co-habitating then you simply have to bear up. However, the payor should be allowed to retire. Period the end. And that means that both have to live on their social security and their retirement - half of which was awarded to the ex at the time of the divorce. Courts don't allow that. Instead the payor has to pay the same amount from their retirement funds - which is commonly known as double dipping and is expressly stated to be exempt - but judges just continually order it paid from retirement anyway...which means the payor is unable to afford to retire. I won't even discuss the hoops they make you go through for co-habitation. If you have $60k and believe that perhaps a 10-15% reduction is worth it - then go for it. Otherwise, don't waste your time, money or resources attempting to prove the court's definition of co-habitation.

If the courts actually modified alimony awards for changes of circumstances - as is outlined in the statutes - most likely, there wouldn't be such an outcry for reform. The problem is that alimony is misunderstood and its purpose really needs to be defined in state statutes. It doesn't matter if someone gets kicked to the curb. Most states have no-fault divorce. Yet, when someone says alimony the immediate perception is that of some rich middle aged executive throwing wifey to the curb for a 20 something admin. That's just a myth/misconception.

The facts are that alimony is awarded in childless divorces, it is awarded despite both parties working, it is awarded to abusers, it is awarded to people who wanted to terminate the marriage, it is awarded to the unfaithful (in most states). There is no rhyme or reason to duration or amount. The NJ Bar recently had a conference during which they presented 4 judges the same set of circumstances. Every judge had a different ruling.

To use your example - the President of my reform group is divorced and pays alimony to her ex husband. He has a long history of drug/alcohol abuse. After the physical abuse started to escalate and interfere with her work (RN), she finally filed for divorce. He then filed for disability and began seeing doctors. Ultimately, just prior to the divorce, he was approved for disability as a result of depression. So there is an example of the situation that you noted.

However, also during the divorce, he decided to run her off of the road, her car rolled multiple times, ultimately landing upside down in a ditch. She was unconscious in the vehicle. Fortunately, an off-duty state trooper witnessed the whole thing, called for back up, then wrestled the tire iron away from her husband (he had proceeded to bash the side doors of the vehicle with it) and arrested him. (He was convicted.) She was taken by ambulance - yada, yada. The damage done to her hands and arms was extensive. She had multiple surgeries with Dr's trying to repair her injuries. Three long pain filled years later, she was still unable to adequately perform her duties and was also declared permanently disabled as a result of the injuries that she had sustained. To this day, the judge refuses to modify her alimony. Alimony awarded by the way, when her ex was serving his time. No fault states do not allow the introduction of criminal evidence into family court. This is just one problem with alimony. Once you're in the system it is difficult to get out. Even those lucky enough to obtain a downward modification, rarely are granted over 10% less.

During divorce, the attorneys and judges look at 2 things - how much you earn and how long you were married and then they make a decision. That being said, end the charade. Develop guidelines and calculators similar to child support. There are always going to be the outlying cases and for those, judicial discretion is still in play. NONE of the alimony reform bills are attempting to take alimony off of the books. They want standardized formulas and an end date that allows folks who have worked their whole lives to retire.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I appreciate that Ld. However, no one in the reform movement is arguing that there are times it is valid.

In the FL reform bill, as well as our current NJ reform bill, discretion is still allowed. I agree that there are elderly women who may have been the stay at home mom as that was the societal norm of the times and if they have not remarried and are not co-habitating then you simply have to bear up. However, the payor should be allowed to retire. Period the end. And that means that both have to live on their social security and their retirement - half of which was awarded to the ex at the time of the divorce. Courts don't allow that. Instead the payor has to pay the same amount from their retirement funds - which is commonly known as double dipping and is expressly stated to be exempt - but judges just continually order it paid from retirement anyway...which means the payor is unable to afford to retire. I won't even discuss the hoops they make you go through for co-habitation. If you have $60k and believe that perhaps a 10-15% reduction is worth it - then go for it. Otherwise, don't waste your time, money or resources attempting to prove the court's definition of co-habitation.

If the courts actually modified alimony awards for changes of circumstances - as is outlined in the statutes - most likely, there wouldn't be such an outcry for reform. The problem is that alimony is misunderstood and its purpose really needs to be defined in state statutes. It doesn't matter if someone gets kicked to the curb. Most states have no-fault divorce. Yet, when someone says alimony the immediate perception is that of some rich middle aged executive throwing wifey to the curb for a 20 something admin. That's just a myth/misconception.

The facts are that alimony is awarded in childless divorces, it is awarded despite both parties working, it is awarded to abusers, it is awarded to people who wanted to terminate the marriage, it is awarded to the unfaithful (in most states). There is no rhyme or reason to duration or amount. The NJ Bar recently had a conference during which they presented 4 judges the same set of circumstances. Every judge had a different ruling.

To use your example - the President of my reform group is divorced and pays alimony to her ex husband. He has a long history of drug/alcohol abuse. After the physical abuse started to escalate and interfere with her work (RN), she finally filed for divorce. He then filed for disability and began seeing doctors. Ultimately, just prior to the divorce, he was approved for disability as a result of depression. So there is an example of the situation that you noted.

However, also during the divorce, he decided to run her off of the road, her car rolled multiple times, ultimately landing upside down in a ditch. She was unconscious in the vehicle. Fortunately, an off-duty state trooper witnessed the whole thing, called for back up, then wrestled the tire iron away from her husband (he had proceeded to bash the side doors of the vehicle with it) and arrested him. (He was convicted.) She was taken by ambulance - yada, yada. The damage done to her hands and arms was extensive. She had multiple surgeries with Dr's trying to repair her injuries. Three long pain filled years later, she was still unable to adequately perform her duties and was also declared permanently disabled as a result of the injuries that she had sustained. To this day, the judge refuses to modify her alimony. Alimony awarded by the way, when her ex was serving his time. No fault states do not allow the introduction of criminal evidence into family court. This is just one problem with alimony. Once you're in the system it is difficult to get out. Even those lucky enough to obtain a downward modification, rarely are granted over 10% less.

During divorce, the attorneys and judges look at 2 things - how much you earn and how long you were married and then they make a decision. That being said, end the charade. Develop guidelines and calculators similar to child support. There are always going to be the outlying cases and for those, judicial discretion is still in play. NONE of the alimony reform bills are attempting to take alimony off of the books. They want standardized formulas and an end date that allows folks who have worked their whole lives to retire.
That was a horrendous example...did she appeal? I agree that if a case like that can happen in any particular state, then reform is desperately needed in that state. I don't see how its possible that criminal acts could not be considered in your state, because spousal abuse often comes into play in divorces even in no fault states. Not as grounds for the divorce, but in terms of property splits, protection for the abused spouse etc.

We really don't see much alimony in my state (Indiana), and when you do see it its generally in cases where pretty much everybody would agree that its fair.
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
That was a horrendous example...did she appeal? I agree that if a case like that can happen in any particular state, then reform is desperately needed in that state. I don't see how its possible that criminal acts could not be considered in your state, because spousal abuse often comes into play in divorces even in no fault states. Not as grounds for the divorce, but in terms of property splits, protection for the abused spouse etc.

We really don't see much alimony in my state (Indiana), and when you do see it its generally in cases where pretty much everybody would agree that its fair.
I highly doubt that it is a rare as you think in Indiana and that everybody would agree it is fair when it is seen. For example:
Thompson v. Thompson, 811 N.E.2d 888 (Ind.App. 2004)
Court of Appeals of Indiana
July 15, 2004
811 N.E.2d 888


See also:
http://www.lawjmh.com/2011/08/understanding-indiana-spousal-maintenance/
http://www.state.in.us/legislative/ic/code/title31/ar15/ch7.html
Fischer v. Fischer, 891 N.E.2d 669 (Ind.App. 2008)
Court of Appeals of Indiana
July 28, 2008
891 N.E.2d 669

Pierre v. Pierre, 79A02-1102-DR-137
Court of Appeals of Indiana
February 29, 2012

I can continue proving you wrong.The court cases all stated that someone though spousal awards were unfair.
 
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Bali Hai

Senior Member
I appreciate that Ld. However, no one in the reform movement is arguing that there are times it is valid.

In the FL reform bill, as well as our current NJ reform bill, discretion is still allowed. I agree that there are elderly women who may have been the stay at home mom as that was the societal norm of the times and if they have not remarried and are not co-habitating then you simply have to bear up. However, the payor should be allowed to retire. Period the end. And that means that both have to live on their social security and their retirement - half of which was awarded to the ex at the time of the divorce. Courts don't allow that. Instead the payor has to pay the same amount from their retirement funds - which is commonly known as double dipping and is expressly stated to be exempt - but judges just continually order it paid from retirement anyway...which means the payor is unable to afford to retire. I won't even discuss the hoops they make you go through for co-habitation. If you have $60k and believe that perhaps a 10-15% reduction is worth it - then go for it. Otherwise, don't waste your time, money or resources attempting to prove the court's definition of co-habitation.

If the courts actually modified alimony awards for changes of circumstances - as is outlined in the statutes - most likely, there wouldn't be such an outcry for reform. The problem is that alimony is misunderstood and its purpose really needs to be defined in state statutes. It doesn't matter if someone gets kicked to the curb. Most states have no-fault divorce. Yet, when someone says alimony the immediate perception is that of some rich middle aged executive throwing wifey to the curb for a 20 something admin. That's just a myth/misconception.

The facts are that alimony is awarded in childless divorces, it is awarded despite both parties working, it is awarded to abusers, it is awarded to people who wanted to terminate the marriage, it is awarded to the unfaithful (in most states). There is no rhyme or reason to duration or amount. The NJ Bar recently had a conference during which they presented 4 judges the same set of circumstances. Every judge had a different ruling.

To use your example - the President of my reform group is divorced and pays alimony to her ex husband. He has a long history of drug/alcohol abuse. After the physical abuse started to escalate and interfere with her work (RN), she finally filed for divorce. He then filed for disability and began seeing doctors. Ultimately, just prior to the divorce, he was approved for disability as a result of depression. So there is an example of the situation that you noted.

However, also during the divorce, he decided to run her off of the road, her car rolled multiple times, ultimately landing upside down in a ditch. She was unconscious in the vehicle. Fortunately, an off-duty state trooper witnessed the whole thing, called for back up, then wrestled the tire iron away from her husband (he had proceeded to bash the side doors of the vehicle with it) and arrested him. (He was convicted.) She was taken by ambulance - yada, yada. The damage done to her hands and arms was extensive. She had multiple surgeries with Dr's trying to repair her injuries. Three long pain filled years later, she was still unable to adequately perform her duties and was also declared permanently disabled as a result of the injuries that she had sustained. To this day, the judge refuses to modify her alimony. Alimony awarded by the way, when her ex was serving his time. No fault states do not allow the introduction of criminal evidence into family court. This is just one problem with alimony. Once you're in the system it is difficult to get out. Even those lucky enough to obtain a downward modification, rarely are granted over 10% less.

During divorce, the attorneys and judges look at 2 things - how much you earn and how long you were married and then they make a decision. That being said, end the charade. Develop guidelines and calculators similar to child support. There are always going to be the outlying cases and for those, judicial discretion is still in play. NONE of the alimony reform bills are attempting to take alimony off of the books. They want standardized formulas and an end date that allows folks who have worked their whole lives to retire.
Great job tuffbrk.

Additionally when someone says alimony, the perception is Hollywood (Actress Demi Moore is seeking alimony from estranged husband Ashton Kutcher), Paul McCartney or Donald Trump. Come on, does Demi Moore need alimony? No. She wants it. If a judge awards it, that sends a message to the whole nation.

Every kid with a pair of basketball sneakers wants to grow up and be a star in the NBA. Expectations of alimony are in line with that culture and kind of thinking.
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
OP, adultery can be used against you. If you take your children around your adulterous lover they can be called as witnesses. There are cases in which this was mentioned. Can it affect parenting time (Tennessee does not recognize custody per several sites)? Maybe.
Kenneth ****** v. Martha ******, M2002-02350-COA-R3-CV, April 19, 2004

http://www.paparoberts.com/Articles/Top-10-Myths-Tennessee-Divorce-Law.shtml
http://research.lawyers.com/Tennessee/Divorce-in-Tennessee.html
http://memphisdivorce.com/how-much-can-an-extramarital-affair-cost-under-tennessee-divorce-alimony-laws/ (alimony can be reduced for screwing around)
http://www.tba.org/journal/the-pitfalls-of-romantic-involvement-during-divorce-proceedings

OP, don't screw around while married. Your adultery can impact your divorce, custody, spousal maintenance. It is that simple. If you want to bedhop, wait until you are divorced. The fact that your spouse knows you cheated will NOT help you. Combine the above (the court case states that Father could have called the children (11 and under) to testify regarding seeing their mother in an affair behaving inappropriately and the others state that alimony and custody can be negtively impacted) and you should not expect to get spousal maintenance OR full parenting time. Expect some type of shared parenting UNLESS dad agrees otherwise. Don't expect that your lover will be allowed anywhere near the children.
 

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