• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

College educated combat passed over for job by civilian (job stated vets preference)

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

Status
Not open for further replies.

avssuc

Junior Member
Thank you, sir, for your service to our country. As the big sister to a wonderful Marine who served 4 tours in Iraq, and came home to live on disability after watching many of his platoon die through the years, I am grateful. It's an honorable passion that you have, to serve those soldiers who came home injured physically and mentally. I see those injuries in my baby brother when he remembers how one of his "brothers' died in his arms after stepping on a landmine.

It is with all due respect (and that is alot of respect) that I wonder if you went into the interview sounding as arrogant as your initial post sounded? I am sure that you did not intend to sound that way, but you did and it is a put off.

Thank you for your kindness here. I may have crossed paths with your brother at some point based on what you mention. Was he in the Battle of Nasiriyah in 2003? I'll never forget what I saw there... some spots in Fallujah, Al Kut, and Karbala as well, but enough of that.

I suppose I may have conveyed arrogance, but there are items to consider:

-This medium may leave some of my content lost in translation
-I was angry last night as I wrote it
-There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance

The job only pays $16 an hour, only gives 36 hours a week, and is only available if government grants continue to flow. I can't imagine that there are many folks with high pedigrees and veteran status looking for this. Couple this with the fact that the state I currently live in (Mississippi) is 51st in education, and that many jobs are had through social networking (good ole boy southern stuff)... and I believe that I have just cause to be skeptical.
 


Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Thank you for your kindness here. I may have crossed paths with your brother at some point based on what you mention. Was he in the Battle of Nasiriyah in 2003? I'll never forget what I saw there... some spots in Fallujah, Al Kut, and Karbala as well, but enough of that.

I suppose I may have conveyed arrogance, but there are items to consider:

-This medium may leave some of my content lost in translation
-I was angry last night as I wrote it
-There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance

The job only pays $16 an hour, only gives 36 hours a week, and is only available if government grants continue to flow. I can't imagine that there are many folks with high pedigrees and veteran status looking for this. Couple this with the fact that the state I currently live in (Mississippi) is 51st in education, and that many jobs are had through social networking (good ole boy southern stuff)... and I believe that I have just cause to be skeptical.
There is nothing illegal about "social networking (good ole boy southern stuff)"
 

avssuc

Junior Member
Some of them went on to be Senators and Secretary of State after throwing their navy medals over a wall. And Yzerman was overrated.
Well, Kerry did get shot in the rear, and his service was war time. Medals are flair, the Vietnam War was based on BS cooked up by Calvinist fundamentalists (Dulles brothers), and the words of two time MoH recipient Smedley Butler come to mind when I read your first sentence.

Yzerman 'may' have been overrated, but you can throw most of the 80's and early 90's players in there as well, minus Jagr and Lemieux.
 

avssuc

Junior Member
Using OP's reasoning, Marines get first crack at jobs. Then Army. After them, the Navy, I suppose, with AF taking the leftovers as usual.

Is that how it works?
Hyperbole at its finest, nice work.

In the sense of rapport building, a 'combat veteran' most certainly has a leg up in terms of the OP. I'm not taking anything away form non-combat vets, but the possible sociological understanding through shared experience shouldn't be denied or downplayed. Rapport is the essential first step in helping a great number of these veterans. Again, I realize my post is heavy with speculation... all I wanted was advice on what to do if I were able to confirm my suspicions.

Your post was troll bait and you know it. I was under the impression that people on this forum would be a bit more constructive and topic oriented, but I should have known that there would be folks like you.
 

avssuc

Junior Member
Using OP's reasoning, Marines get first crack at jobs. Then Army. After them, the Navy, I suppose, with AF taking the leftovers as usual.

Is that how it works?
OP i'm going to be straight with you..

Yes it does appear you might potentially have an issue with civilian adaption. I'm willing to speculate that was picked up on during your interview process which, whether you wish to hear it or not, makes you a possible liability. I understand you feel you're more qualified due to your "experiences" but when those experiences potentially cause you to become an issue yourself, the employer must then weigh the benefits vs. risks of hiring you. They *seemingly* decided your risks outweighed your possible benefits. Is it wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Again, i'm only speculating here.

Also your military experience does not automatically mean you're qualified to work with veterans. Working with veterans is an extremely demanding job that requires skills in the psychology arena as well as therapeutic. You'll need to be fine tuned in understanding mental health as well as the struggles that come with poverty and addiction. That isn't a job that just any layman is qualified to do. I know this because I have a family member who has just recently changed jobs and now works with veterans. Her positions before that were in several state/private hospitals working with mentally ill and before that she worked with the Department of Children and Families with juveniles. She has also done extensive community work with at risk homeless women and teens. While she has no military experience other than being the child of military parents and the majority of the rest of her family being military, her degrees in Psychology and Sociology as well as her many years experience in working with mentally ill have more than qualified her to work where she does. She has a genuine passion for her job as we have lost a family member to combat related suicide and she genuinely wants to help veterans. You need to see that your military training is not equal to actual training in working with struggling veterans. Its the same coin yes, but two different sides.
I should have mentioned in the OP that the job pays $16 an hour, gives 36 hours a week, and is subject to termination if federal grants dry up. That, and the reality of Mississippi job seekers. It's not like I'm in Austin or San Diego. If you've never visited, you don't know the reality.

Outside of that, and now that I've had time to calm down a bit, I appreciate the things you've mentioned here. Even though I still think the statistical probability of being passed by someone like you mention is slim, it's very topical.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
 

avssuc

Junior Member
Veteran's preference does not mean they must necessarily hire the vet over the non vet. It just means that they are committed to giving veterans at least an equal, and sometimes a more preferential position in the interview process. Using you as "a piece of liability insurance in their hiring process" is perfectly legal and absolutely their right. No one is FORCED to hire someone.

For many years, I watched a process in state civil service, which is even more restricted and required to give veteran's preference than the place you interviewed with, which I suspect may have been a private contractor who administers federal monies. The thing is, vets were given preference in referrals to the job, where they may have fifteen interviewees with degrees and fairly equal amounts of experience. You got into the top two or three. But once you are up there, there is still the tiresome duty of selling yourself. That you "want" to work with vets is in no way an indicator that you would be good at doing it.
Counseling others requires many skills you may not have picked up in a military setting. For one thing, how would you relate to those veterans who are not real enough for you, who worked in the offices, who did not get combat wounded, but still need help now? So you could work with the worst of the worst damaged, because you (thousand yard stare here) have seen the worst. That doesn't make a counselor of you.

And even more than working with the vets, it is also a matter of working with the powers that be to help these vets obtain services. With this "we vets are going to get messed on, and we have to demand our rights!" attitude, you probably will not be very helpful, because a lot of these vets you'd be serving will have this same attitude, and will have already had problems working with civilian organizations and bureaucracies. They don't need a counselor who reinforces this.

And of course there is just the plain old likeability factor. No one is going to hire a ****y jerk who already, without real experience in doing this type of work, already knows much more about how to do it and the clients and the system and how everything has to work than the boss who is going to have to supervise them. Two minutes after you walked in, they perceived that they did not want to spend quality time in an office environment with you, because you would not relate to or respect anyone who has not had your particular experiences. It would be difficult for you to accept supervision, we can tell that just from your posts here.

You need to work not at suing somebody to force them to give you a job, which you don't have any case for that I can see, but in being perceived as a person who can do the job without bias or lack of respect for others.

I feel as if I went in with no sense of entitlement or all-knowing attitude (like my angry 'hours after' rejection OP and two following responses might convey). When asked on how I would deal with situations where my experience may be lacking, I acknowledged the possible issue, while subtly highlighting educational and real world experience gained as an interrogator, source operator, and intelligence analyst.

Bias in my military line of work gets people killed. Not respecting objectives (comparable to respect for others in this job) would also fall under this. It seems as if you're reaching for reasons to work around my education and experience.
 

avssuc

Junior Member
Wow, brother. Wrong attitude trooper.

REMFs - to include most of the 5 branches - are every bit as much veterans as those of us that have ground combat tours in the sandbox. Just because they may have been fortunate enough to not have to cash that check for their backside they wrote, doesn't make their willingness to serve any less valuable or important.

I was armor and have two combat patches - 3ID and 1AD. I also served with 3ACR. Been there, done that, got the shirt.
Frankly from the tenor of your posting on this thread, you might be having some issues with adaptation. Please contact the Vet Center, the VA, or whatever support group you are participating in. If you are not - join one. It helps. Sometimes you need to lean on someone - sometimes someone needs to lean on you.

TD

(19k20 - active / 31b20 reserves)
I contacted the VA in October 2015 when my night screams, sleep walking, and other issues returned. I suspect these subconscious reactions were a direct result of working with MARSOC, JSOC, and others during that time. The VA scheduled me an appointment for late February, 2016. Still waiting.

Willingness and circumstance (in terms of combat) play a large role in rapport building with combat veterans (as I've mentioned several times). You know this as well as I do. How were the guys in your unit that didn't have a patch treated? Still, REMF's and FOBITS are war time vets. The real issue I had was being passed over by a non-vet. My statement on "peacetime Navy service" is being blown out of proportion.
 

OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
Being given a job in the real world is not so easy because in the service you are already employed. Being a vet does not mean you are magically somehow better qualified, in some gov't jobs it gives you a step up in the hiring process so you at least get an interview. Try USAJOBS.GOV
 

Rwedunyet

Member
Thank you for your kindness here. I may have crossed paths with your brother at some point based on what you mention. Was he in the Battle of Nasiriyah in 2003? I'll never forget what I saw there... some spots in Fallujah, Al Kut, and Karbala as well, but enough of that.

I suppose I may have conveyed arrogance, but there are items to consider:

-This medium may leave some of my content lost in translation
-I was angry last night as I wrote it
-There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance

The job only pays $16 an hour, only gives 36 hours a week, and is only available if government grants continue to flow. I can't imagine that there are many folks with high pedigrees and veteran status looking for this. Couple this with the fact that the state I currently live in (Mississippi) is 51st in education, and that many jobs are had through social networking (good ole boy southern stuff)... and I believe that I have just cause to be skeptical.
He has never discussed actual locations with me. I do know he was in Fallujah when the Sh*t hit the fan. That was where he was shot at the first time. Perhaps you heard of the group that was hit so hard, with so many killed as they escorted a supply shipment? It was awful. His last tour was the worst one. Our father died while brother was deployed. We notified the Red Cross, and they got word to brother. He was allowed to call home immediately, and did so with a chaplain by his side. However the call was cut short, and I heard screams and explosions right before the connection was severed. It was a terrifying 48 hours before we heard from him again, and he told us that "things got a little hairy for a bit". Three more of his brothers died that day. He was able to come home 2 days after the funeral. We held a separate graveside just for brother. And he hasn't been the same since. He told me the other day that he still fidgets because he doesn't know what to do with his hands when there isn't a gun in them. He just feels lost.

You remind me of him. He has the same way with words, sounding arrogant without meaning too and telling me that it is confidence. I am glad that you are confident, but be careful in how you display that confidence. Civilians do not live in that fine line between arrogance and confidence, and cannot recognize it very easily.

I hope that you have retained the ability to take bluntness here. Based on what you said in your first post, even if I remove your anger/confidence/arrogance, I would not have hired you either. While I love what you want to do for folks like my brother, I think you may still be too salty to deal with compromised warriors (I do understand the difference between a enlisted person and a warrior). I sincerely hope that you will not let this dampen your desire to help others. I think that such a passion as you have displayed will be a wonderful attribute to share with our vets, once you have taken time to finish licking your own wounds. A person with your history and your passion, once healed, could be the person that could get my baby brother whole again.

Hang in there, friend. You have a purpose, this job just wasn't it. Keep healing and keep looking. Perhaps you could put in some volunteer hours? (That might be a good way to get your foot further in the door, too)
 

Silverplum

Senior Member
Thank you for your kindness here. I may have crossed paths with your brother at some point based on what you mention. Was he in the Battle of Nasiriyah in 2003? I'll never forget what I saw there... some spots in Fallujah, Al Kut, and Karbala as well, but enough of that.

I suppose I may have conveyed arrogance, but there are items to consider:

-This medium may leave some of my content lost in translation
-I was angry last night as I wrote it
-There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance

The job only pays $16 an hour, only gives 36 hours a week, and is only available if government grants continue to flow. I can't imagine that there are many folks with high pedigrees and veteran status looking for this. Couple this with the fact that the state I currently live in (Mississippi) is 51st in education, and that many jobs are had through social networking (good ole boy southern stuff)... and I believe that I have just cause to be skeptical.
We read what you write. If you don't want us to view you as a hostile jerk, don't present yourself as one. Don't write when you're angry.
 

avssuc

Junior Member
I have no further responses for this poster. In view of his service to his country I will not tell him what I think of his attitude or his assumption that he is entitled to a job, or his assumption that he can tell by looking at someone whether or not they served.

Do you ever try to reason with situations that seem atypical, or do you just assume everything is 'up-front'?

I never claimed my observations were infallible, I simply used basic probability. Even if she defies the odds, and is indeed a veteran, the chances of her having a superior educational background (geographically speaking) significantly raise said odds. I've been wrong plenty of times, and have no problem eating crow if I'm wrong here.

I just want to know that I wasn't passed over for a position (that I have passion for) because of 'southern fried' hiring practice taking care of their own. I live in one of the most corrupt states in the nation, exiled to keep the wife near her family. I was born and raised in Michigan, a place without overt racism brazenly embroidered on the state flag, a place where unions evened the table for the working class, and a place that's not nearly as corrupt as the place I now call home.

Based on this, my suspicion probably makes sense for folks not emotionally involved with the geographic or gender content, or those looking to degrade people over the internet for kicks.
 

I'mTheFather

Senior Member
What happens when I go in seeking benifits and confirm my suspicion?

Also, Navy vets that served in peacetime know squat about the horrors of war. How many of her friends were blown to pieces for no good reason at all?
This was your second post in this thread. It was arrogant and an assumption. It also demeaned the service of many. If you had any idea how many of the respondents in this thread have served or have had loved ones who served in combat, then perhaps you could understand why this thread took a turn for the worse.

And make no mistake, that turn occurred with your second post.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
Just out of morbid curiosity, what experience do you have in working with or supporting veterans. Yellow ribbons and "Power of Pride" bumper stickers don't count.
My daughter served in Afghanistan and returned very badly damaged.

Any questions?

Didn't think so.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

avssuc

Junior Member
This was your second post in this thread. It was arrogant and an assumption. It also demeaned the service of many. If you had any idea how many of the respondents in this thread have served or have had loved ones who served in combat, then perhaps you could understand why this thread took a turn for the worse.

And make no mistake, that turn occurred with your second post.
If you read through my responses, you would see that I addressed this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top