Christmas Visitation Issues - already :-(

[LdiJ]

You are going to have them until 4 PM on Christmas Eve...you could do something special then. You could also try to negotiate with him to have the kids a couple of hours longer on Christmas Day.

Its unfortunate, but its not very likely to happen again.

 

[BalloonGirl]

You are going to have them until 4 PM on Christmas Eve...you could do something special then. You could also try to negotiate with him to have the kids a couple of hours longer on Christmas Day.

Its unfortunate, but its not very likely to happen again.

Yes it is unfortunate...

And the Christmas Eve idea sounds fabulous - if it weren't for the fact that 2 of the 3 kiddos still believe in the white haired, big bellied guy showing up with gifts after they go to bed ON Christmas Eve... and that I have this funny thing called a job which will keep me away from home until just about the time I have to leave to take kiddos to dads...

I remember LdiJ, you posting on my Thanksgiving issue.

The oldest kiddo (13) heard the schedule for Christmas day and was furious - and called her father (unbeknownst to me) and told him the girls wanted more time at home with Mom. He sent me an email telling me to explain to them that we are just trying to follow the rules. Kiddo called dad back, and asked him "Did Mom force you to follow the decree on Thanksgiving, or did she let us have way more time with you than the decree said? Just think about that before you call us back."

So proud of her... smart cookie, already sees Dad's invoking the decree when it benefits him, and manipulating around it when it doesn't...

Right or wrong, she took a stand with Dad, which is hard for them to do...

We'll see what happens.

 

[Ohiogal]

Yes it is unfortunate...

And the Christmas Eve idea sounds fabulous - if it weren't for the fact that 2 of the 3 kiddos still believe in the white haired, big bellied guy showing up with gifts after they go to bed ON Christmas Eve... and that I have this funny thing called a job which will keep me away from home until just about the time I have to leave to take kiddos to dads...

I remember LdiJ, you posting on my Thanksgiving issue.

The oldest kiddo (13) heard the schedule for Christmas day and was furious - and called her father (unbeknownst to me) and told him the girls wanted more time at home with Mom. He sent me an email telling me to explain to them that we are just trying to follow the rules. Kiddo called dad back, and asked him "Did Mom force you to follow the decree on Thanksgiving, or did she let us have way more time with you than the decree said? Just think about that before you call us back."

So proud of her... smart cookie, already sees Dad's invoking the decree when it benefits him, and manipulating around it when it doesn't...

Right or wrong, she took a stand with Dad, which is hard for them to do...

We'll see what happens.

And why are YOU allowing kiddo to be in the middle? Seriously you are proud of her but quite frankly that shows craptastic parenting on your part. Seriously. It is a big deal because YOU are allowing it to be a big deal.

 

[BalloonGirl]

e: Starting in 2003, the parties will alternate each year the half day between Christmas eve and Christmas day, with the parties' minor children spending Christmas eve from 4 pm until 12 noon on Christmas day with dad in odd calendar years, and with Mom on even calendar years; with Dad having the parties' minor children in even calendar years from 12 noon on Christmas day until 8 am the following morning."


Does your order say anywhere that holiday and vacation time will superceed (sp?) regular visitations? Read through thoroughly and see if something like that is present.
Generally holiday time takes precedence over regular time.

Can OP assume this to be the case even if her order doesn't specifically say it?

Wishful thinking. The decree is exactly as written in my OP - nothing about me as custodial parent getting the kids until the next day. Only getting them back at noon, and since it's his visitation weekend, he gets them back at 5.

 

[BalloonGirl]

And why are YOU allowing kiddo to be in the middle? Seriously you are proud of her but quite frankly that shows craptastic parenting on your part. Seriously. It is a big deal because YOU are allowing it to be a big deal.

Thanks for the judgement on my parenting.

I didn't know she called him - as I stated. She told me after, and when I got his email, I also told her to let it be, it's how the decree is written, and she needed to let it go.

SHE chose to leave the 2nd message on Dad's cell phone - and told me after the fact.

I don't monitor kiddos' calls to dad, I found out after the fact.

They can call him whenever they want, and for whatever reason they want. She has every right to speak up for what she wants.

I'm proud of her for speaking her mind - and I did NOT put her in the middle. I did not ask her to call him, did not encourage it, did not put words in her mouth.

But please, call my parenting "craptastic." That's helpful and appreciated.

 

[LdiJ]

Wishful thinking. The decree is exactly as written in my OP - nothing about me as custodial parent getting the kids until the next day. Only getting them back at noon, and since it's his visitation weekend, he gets them back at 5.

I have to say that I personally think that he is acting like an AZZ. I also don't think that you can help what a 13 year old child chooses to communicate to her father.

However, the law is the law is the law. If dad doesn't decide to be smarter about things, he is just going to damage his relationship with his children.

 

[BalloonGirl]

I have to say that I personally think that he is acting like an AZZ. I also don't think that you can help what a 13 year old child chooses to communicate to her father.

However, the law is the law is the law. If dad doesn't decide to be smarter about things, he is just going to damage his relationship with his children.

Thank you, seriously, for this post.

The law is the law is the law, and I get that. I have done my best to abide by the decree as closely as possible, and he has done whatever he can to circumvent it except for when it benefits him.

And you are 100% accurate that he is damaging his relationship with them. I just hope he sees it before he is too late.

She has been unhappy with him for a while. He kept asking her why and she and finally gave him a list of reasons why this past weekend (if you want them, I'll share, but it's really not pertinent to this post, with the exception of Mom's flexibility regarding visitation, and Dad's refusal to be so - and it was part of her list.)

I don't think it's a bad thing to teach your children how to express your feelings, and what you want without casting stones or being overly emotional. It's an important skill everyone needs.

 

[CJane]

Not legal advice, but here's an idea for the whole "fat bearded guy" thing.

My kiddos believed in Santa when we first divorced, and I have the kids EVERY Christmas. Knowing this, and already dealing with multiple households, and growing up in a divorced family where at least 4 Christmases take place every year, we had to get creative.

So we explained to the kids that Santa can no longer make the rounds on Christmas eve to ALL the houses, and so he's made arrangements for kids that will be someplace other than "home" on Christmas, to deliver presents to them where they will be, and ALSO on whatever evening they need their presents at the "other" house.

So, my kiddos totally believed that Santa visited MY house on the night BEFORE Christmas eve and left them junk, my Mom's house the night OF Christmas eve and left them MORE junk (and stockings) AND that he visited their DAD'S house just before whatever day he'd chosen to have Christmas...

 

[BalloonGirl]

Not legal advice, but here's an idea for the whole "fat bearded guy" thing.

My kiddos believed in Santa when we first divorced, and I have the kids EVERY Christmas. Knowing this, and already dealing with multiple households, and growing up in a divorced family where at least 4 Christmases take place every year, we had to get creative.

So we explained to the kids that Santa can no longer make the rounds on Christmas eve to ALL the houses, and so he's made arrangements for kids that will be someplace other than "home" on Christmas, to deliver presents to them where they will be, and ALSO on whatever evening they need their presents at the "other" house.

So, my kiddos totally believed that Santa visited MY house on the night BEFORE Christmas eve and left them junk, my Mom's house the night OF Christmas eve and left them MORE junk (and stockings) AND that he visited their DAD'S house just before whatever day he'd chosen to have Christmas...

That's a fantastic idea!

Sadly, this is probably the last year that the 2 younger kiddos will believe in the fat bearded guy. My oldest stopped believing in 4th grade, the two others are in 5th and 3rd.

But I love how you handled it, and wish I'd thought of that when the first was born - even before the divorce, we had multiple "Santa" visits, and it would have been so easy to incorporate

Thank you for sharing that!

 

[stealth2]

Uuuhhh... the "craptastic" parenting was spot on - a 13yo should really not be privy to what her parents' divorce decree or visitation order says in that much specificity. If one of MY kids pulled that crap? There would have been consequences - not my crowing at how wonderfully clever s/he was. And yes, I am a custodial parent.

 

[Hisbabygirl77]

Uuuhhh... the "craptastic" parenting was spot on - a 13yo should really not be privy to what her parents' divorce decree or visitation order says in that much specificity. If one of MY kids pulled that crap? There would have been consequences - not my crowing at how wonderfully clever s/he was. And yes, I am a custodial parent.

That's what I was wondering. Why in the world would a 13 year old know the wording of the court order or that mom so nicely "allowed" dad more time a thanksgiving. Dang it people these are children. You are not allowing him to borrow a car. Do not involve your children. You know what I would have done had my daughter called her father and said that. I would have told her I would not tolerate her disrespecting her father or tryign to make him feel like being with him was less important. I would have made her call him back and apoligize for that. Not been proud of her at all.

 

[LdiJ]

That's what I was wondering. Why in the world would a 13 year old know the wording of the court order or that mom so nicely "allowed" dad more time a thanksgiving. Dang it people these are children. You are not allowing him to borrow a car. Do not involve your children. You know what I would have done had my daughter called her father and said that. I would have told her I would not tolerate her disrespecting her father or tryign to make him feel like being with him was less important. I would have made her call him back and apoligize for that. Not been proud of her at all.

I think that sometimes we underestimate just how much teens know and understand about what is going on in their lives....and have an opinion about it too.

The child knew that dad got extra time at Thanksgiving, because DAD had the children call and ask to spend the extra time with him.

The children know that they are only going to spend about 4 1/2 hours with mom at Christmas, unless of course you advocate keeping the children in the dark about their schedule, which seems absurd to me.

The 13 year old is unhappy about that. She expressed her opinion to dad. Dad responds that they are following the rules. She knows that they didn't follow the rules for Thanksgiving. She expressed her opinion to dad again.

I don't understand how anyone can advocate punishing a teenager for having an opinion and expressing it...or for being free to communicate with her father without permission.

 

[BalloonGirl]

Uuuhhh... the "craptastic" parenting was spot on - a 13yo should really not be privy to what her parents' divorce decree or visitation order says in that much specificity. If one of MY kids pulled that crap? There would have been consequences - not my crowing at how wonderfully clever s/he was. And yes, I am a custodial parent.

Uh... the dad told them what visitation would be, and that is what the decree said it would be. Not me. He sat the two younger kiddos down on their last weekend at his house (when the oldest was at a basketball game) and told them what the decree said. They told oldest kiddo, and she was upset and called him. I didn't say a word.

I have told the kids nothing - except that she needed to let it go.

Dad leaves messages on the home machine stating what the decree says and that's final.

And yes, 13 year olds can be very smart - mine is. Dad is a manipulator - and she sees it and knows it.

And fyi - Dad has yet to return kiddo's calls. Since Tuesday night. And she has left 3 messages.

I do whatever I can to keep kiddos out of the middle. I don't monitor calls or emails or texts between dad and kiddos. That's between them.

I wasn't "crowing over how clever she is." I was proud of her for speaking up for what she wanted, and for making a good point to her father.


LdiJ - thank you again for defending me and my parenting.

 

[pittrocks]

BalloonGirl

I understand your frustration with this issue..

However, look at the big picture of things.

Is it really going to matter in 15 years when you look back on these memories?

Yes, Dad seems to be acting a fool, but don't let yourself fall into that trap as well. Tit for tat is not seemly.

Also, doesn't matter if he's in the wrong, your daughter should not be speaking to her father in a disrespectful way..make sure that is nipped in the bud.
I don't like my children's father either (BIG SURPRISE) but I never let my children have a nasty tone with him on the phone. If so, they are disciplined for that. Big picture--respect for authority.
It's unfortunate that older children are sort of in the middle because they know of all the arrangements...guess it's hard to prevent that.
Make sure children are always aware that they don't have to choose sides.

 

[stealth2]

Uh... the dad told them what visitation would be, and that is what the decree said it would be. Not me. He sat the two younger kiddos down on their last weekend at his house (when the oldest was at a basketball game) and told them what the decree said. They told oldest kiddo, and she was upset and called him. I didn't say a word.

I have told the kids nothing - except that she needed to let it go.

Dad leaves messages on the home machine stating what the decree says and that's final.

And yes, 13 year olds can be very smart - mine is. Dad is a manipulator - and she sees it and knows it.

And fyi - Dad has yet to return kiddo's calls. Since Tuesday night. And she has left 3 messages.

I do whatever I can to keep kiddos out of the middle. I don't monitor calls or emails or texts between dad and kiddos. That's between them.

I wasn't "crowing over how clever she is." I was proud of her for speaking up for what she wanted, and for making a good point to her father.


LdiJ - thank you again for defending me and my parenting.

Interesting - that's not how you explained it the first time. And sorry... while it's good for kids to be able to express their opinions, they also need to be able to do so in a respectful and mature manner. Especially to their elders. "You think about that before you call back" is neither.

Ya know... Like I said before - I'm not getting any of Christmas with my kids. So we'll celebrate another time. In all the years their father and I have been divorced, "that's what the order says" has never been uttered to them. My ex is hardly parent of the year, but at least he does abide by that. The most my kids have heard is "that's what works best for your dad/mom and I at this point." Sure, they've probably put two and two together, and that's okay. They appreciate never having been put in the position of having to either choose between us, or to have to advocate for one of us.