Christmas Visitation Issues - already :-(

[Ohiogal]

I would like to point out though that dad is insisting on his regular weekend visitation starting at 5PM on Christmas Day, which is the only reason why the kids are only getting 4 1/2 hours with mom for Christmas. On dad's years when he gets the kids from noon on Christmas Day, he gets until 8AM the next morning.

I am not sure a judge would side with dad on this one, even though all of the rest of you believe so.
Insisting on starting your regular weekend on the day of the holiday itself, would seem to me to be interfearing with the holiday.

Yeah and dad is the NCP or non primary custodian. If mom wants to be non primary custodian then she can have until 8am the next morning. The NCP in many places gets a few bones thrown their way for basically having less time throughout the year. If mom wants until 8am then let her trade with dad. Oh, of course that is not what you would suggest.

 

[LdiJ]

Yeah and dad is the NCP or non primary custodian. If mom wants to be non primary custodian then she can have until 8am the next morning. The NCP in many places gets a few bones thrown their way for basically having less time throughout the year. If mom wants until 8am then let her trade with dad. Oh, of course that is not what you would suggest.

I would not suggest that if dad was the CP and mom was the NCP either.

But then, if my child was upset about only getting to spend a few hours with her other parent at Christmas time I would work something out so it wouldn't be that way.

 

[BalloonGirl]

And this has what to do with my opinion that the daughter was way out of line?

I am looking at our New Hampshire parenting plan, the legal form which all parties in the state are obligated to fill out, and no where does it state that holidays supercede the regular visitation schedule. Actually from the looks of things, the noon to 4 pm day switch must be pretty standard as that was my husband initial agreement too, before both parties figured out that was going to be a PITA due to distance and went back and modified to something that was easier but still allowed both parents to enjoy the holiday....

Therefore I do believe (though I lost the crystal ball) from our years experience dealing with this sort of issue in a NH court, that dads version is likely theone the judge will go with.

I have no intention of disregarding the court order. If an alternate agreement is reached, that's great.

And again, I disagree with your criticism of my daughter.

Thank you for your opinion, however. If you'd like to come meet my kids, since you appear to be in NH, and see if you find them rude and disrespectful, let me know.

 

[TinkerBelleLuvr]

At least you do get your children on Christmas ... enjoy the time that you get.

 

[BalloonGirl]

I would not suggest that if dad was the CP and mom was the NCP either.

But then, if my child was upset about only getting to spend a few hours with her other parent at Christmas time I would work something out so it wouldn't be that way.

Agreed.

But then again, you previously stated that you thought dad was acting like an azz.... so, what can you expect?

 

[BalloonGirl]

Uh huh. I have some ocean front property in Arizona, if anyone's buying.



Honestly? If one of my kids said that to me? (because I'm not buying the "plaintive tone" she used to relate it to you - uuhh... she knows she'd be taken to task otherwise, according to you) I'd tell him/her that I would talk to them when they were able to talk respectfully - and to call me when they were ready to do so. Funny... you mentioned a couple of phone calls, and now they've morphed into calls, emails and texts. Is sky-writing next?

Once again, you are judging me without knowing me.

Once again, I don't monitor their email or texts with dad - dd asked if she had email to see if dad had replied. I said she didn't, and she said, humph, he didn't answer my text either.

So...... please. Until you know me, stop judging me.

I haven't made any judgements on you or how you handle things with your children or your ex. Nor have I judged ANYONE on this forum.

Parenting styles can be different, that doesn't mean they're wrong.

Thanks again.

 

[profmum]

Honestly? If one of my kids said that to me? (because I'm not buying the "plaintive tone" she used to relate it to you - uuhh... she knows she'd be taken to task otherwise, according to you) I'd tell him/her that I would talk to them when they were able to talk respectfully - and to call me when they were ready to do so. Funny... you mentioned a couple of phone calls, and now they've morphed into calls, emails and texts. Is sky-writing next?

We often jump on posters about their parenting skills or lack thereof (in somewhat of a canned fashion) without realizing that kids are kids and ALL kids will do and say things that are less than desirable to parents/adults etc in less than optimal tones etc.. No matter how great a parent you are...

Responses about the poster being a crappy parent when the situation does not warrant for it is unfair. In addition, we tell the poster that the behavior of the kids should be perfect and adult like (and if not they are a horrible parent) when in face the coparent could be the one creating the problem.

I personally dont think these type of canned responses that were given to this poster were useful and I dont think OP in this case is a terrible parent because her teenage daugther chose to have a conversation with her Dad that was completely initiated on her part. And which parent here has NOT had their child talk back/rudely to them at some point? Seriously!!

 

[Hisbabygirl77]

We often jump on posters about their parenting skills or lack thereof (in somewhat of a canned fashion) without realizing that kids are kids and ALL kids will do and say things that are less than desirable to parents/adults etc in less than optimal tones etc.. No matter how great a parent you are...

Responses about the poster being a crappy parent when the situation does not warrant for it is unfair. In addition, we tell the poster that the behavior of the kids should be perfect and adult like (and if not they are a horrible parent) when in face the coparent could be the one creating the problem.

I personally dont think these type of canned responses that were given to this poster were useful and I dont think OP in this case is a terrible parent because her teenage daugther chose to have a conversation with her Dad that was completely initiated on her part. And which parent here has NOT had their child talk back/rudely to them at some point? Seriously!!

Nobody said that it was not normal teenage behavior. What was brought up was her response to the behavior. Of course kids talk back. Im sure we would all agree on that. What I think a lot of us found "craptastic" was her response that she was proud of her daughter for it. If parents can compromise great. Obviously her and her ex can't. So she needs to follow the court order and deal with it in a way that her children aren't put in the position to feel like they have to side with one parent or the other.

 

[haiku]

I have no intention of disregarding the court order. If an alternate agreement is reached, that's great.

And again, I disagree with your criticism of my daughter.

Thank you for your opinion, however. If you'd like to come meet my kids, since you appear to be in NH, and see if you find them rude and disrespectful, let me know.

I am glad you are going to follow your court order.

Bottom line though, it is not appropriate for your daughter to argue the court order with her father. Its just NOT. Your children could be the most awesome kids in the world, I won't dispute that as you are correct I don't know them. But again as written, what your daughter said to her father, was way out of line. She is spending 4 and a half hours with you on Christmas day, and will be returned to you for the rest of the christmas holiday after dads weekend. Thats the way it is, and bullying her father is not going to change that. Honestly you are still getting the better part of the deal.

If the emails and texts have anything to do with the sitiuation, and are continuing in the vein of the conversation you have relayed here, I can see where dad may not want to be feeding into it anymore. Once you tell a child they are expected somewhere, I think the discussion is over if the adult deems it over. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[BalloonGirl]

I am glad you are going to follow your court order.

Bottom line though, it is not appropriate for your daughter to argue the court order with her father. Its just NOT. Your children could be the most awesome kids in the world, I won't dispute that as you are correct I don't know them. But again as written, what your daughter said to her father, was way out of line. She is spending 4 and a half hours with you on Christmas day, and will be returned to you for the rest of the christmas holiday after dads weekend. Thats the way it is, and bullying her father is not going to change that. Honestly you are still getting the better part of the deal.

If the emails and texts have anything to do with the sitiuation, and are continuing in the vein of the conversation you have relayed here, I can see where dad may not want to be feeding into it anymore. Once you tell a child they are expected somewhere, I think the discussion is over if the adult deems it over. I see nothing wrong with that.

My daughter hasn't ARGUED anything. She hasn't even SPOKEN to dad. She ASKED dad to call her to talk about it. And I believe that it is well within her rights to ask to talk to Dad about something, ANYTHING that's bothering her.

Dad hasn't had the common courtesy to answer her calls.

 

[haiku]

she certainly has argued. SHe left him an innapropriate ultimatum, that he may not be wanting to entertain until he sees her personally.

 

[LdiJ]

My daughter hasn't ARGUED anything. She hasn't even SPOKEN to dad. She ASKED dad to call her to talk about it. And I believe that it is well within her rights to ask to talk to Dad about something, ANYTHING that's bothering her.

Dad hasn't had the common courtesy to answer her calls.

This has really gotten off the issue of your initial question and on to the issue of parenting, and everybody has different opinions on that.

I do feel strongly that once children reach a certain maturity level that a parent is obligated to listen to their concerns, and is obligated to give the children sound reasons why their concerns cannot be addressed (if they truly cannot be addressed) the way that the children want them addressed.

Now, if its just a teen who is bored a dad's house (for example) then a sound reason can simply be "because, whether you are bored or not, its important that you spend time with your father. You may not agree with that now, but you will understand it later". Then, if the teen refuses to accept that, then it can end up something along the lines of "well, you are just going to have to deal with it".

However, in a situation like this one, where dad has told the children about the court orders and happily let the court orders be disobeyed (and in fact asked the children to ask to you allow them to be disobeyed) for a holiday that benefitted him, but won't give a little on another holiday because it doesn't benefit him, he is sending the wrong message to his children...particularly a teen who is old enough to understand the inequity and has a strong opinion about it.

I said that dad was an AZZ because he doesn't understand the message that he is sending to his children, and doesn't realize that they are getting old enough to form their own opinions and that those opinions will carry on into their adult lives, and to their adult relationship with him.

He could easily give a little in this situation...even if that "give" was only a few hours. However, he may be being stubborn because some extended family of his planned their Christmas celebration for later on Christmas Day, because that was how they did it the year before.

I do however think that you should take this situation back to court. Each of you should be getting 1/2 of the children's Christmas Break from school. There should be no such thing as "regular weekends" during Christmas Break. If you each get 1/2 of Christmas break that allows enough time to accomodate all extended family, even if that means celebrating Christmas on a non-traditional day.

So...you get an order that states (for example) that you get the first 1/2 of Christmas break in even years, and dad gets the last 1/2 in even years, and then it flips in odd years. Whoever doesn't have Christmas Day fall in their 1/2 of the break, gets noon on Christmas Day to 8AM on the 26th. That eliminates the entire problem, and makes things fair for everyone, including the children.

 

[Ohiogal]

This has really gotten off the issue of your initial question and on to the issue of parenting, and everybody has different opinions on that.

I do feel strongly that once children reach a certain maturity level that a parent is obligated to listen to their concerns, and is obligated to give the children sound reasons why their concerns cannot be addressed (if they truly cannot be addressed) the way that the children want them addressed.

A parent is NEVER obligated to explain ANYTHING to a minor child. EVER.

However, in a situation like this one, where dad has told the children about the court orders and happily let the court orders be disobeyed (and in fact asked the children to ask to you allow them to be disobeyed) for a holiday that benefitted him, but won't give a little on another holiday because it doesn't benefit him, he is sending the wrong message to his children...particularly a teen who is old enough to understand the inequity and has a strong opinion about it.

Dad did NOT ask for the court orders to be disobeyed. He asked for an agreement to be reached. She agreed. he doesn't want to agree now. He doesn't have to agree now. She did NOT have to agree then.
The teen should still not be calling her PARENT and giving an ultimatum. I agree with what Haiku stated. Mom's handling of that is to excuse it and that is craptastic.

 

[CJane]

I'm curious. Since we all know that IN GENERAL, holidays supersede weekends, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that Dad's "regular weekend" would NOT come into play until the morning following Christmas Day?

Serious question. It seems to me (and much as it pains me, I know I'm not always right) that OP would probably not be found in contempt by a judge (if Dad bothered to file for contempt at all) if she kept the kiddos til 8am the morning following Christmas. I really don't think it was the intent of the order to only give EITHER parent 4 hours for their Christmas with the children.

 

[haiku]

I'm curious. Since we all know that IN GENERAL, holidays supersede weekends, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that Dad's "regular weekend" would NOT come into play until the morning following Christmas Day?

Serious question. It seems to me (and much as it pains me, I know I'm not always right) that OP would probably not be found in contempt by a judge (if Dad bothered to file for contempt at all) if she kept the kiddos til 8am the morning following Christmas. I really don't think it was the intent of the order to only give EITHER parent 4 hours for their Christmas with the children.

She is getting her specified holiday time though per the order, there was no provision made for the CP wth this order. And there is no "holidays take precedence" in the standard New Hampshire parenting plan. But it does get very specific as to outlining every holiday right down to MLK day, parents birthdays and "other" if you desire.

In reading my husbands old NH order, and his new NH order, if the handwritten fill in parts are exactly as the OP has written here, the screw up happened when they didn't specify that mom also got the 8am time, and its a he said she said as to whther that was intentional. A judge could very well interpret it just as OG said-a bit of a bone thrown to the guy with less custodial time.

Having gotten to the point in this shred parenting thing where my husband only has a few short years left under court order, I just don't think this dog is worth fighting, as mom will have the kiddos back for the full week of the holiday.