Christmas Visitation Issues - already :-(

[LdiJ]

Uh... the dad told them what visitation would be, and that is what the decree said it would be. Not me. He sat the two younger kiddos down on their last weekend at his house (when the oldest was at a basketball game) and told them what the decree said. They told oldest kiddo, and she was upset and called him. I didn't say a word.

I have told the kids nothing - except that she needed to let it go.

Dad leaves messages on the home machine stating what the decree says and that's final.

And yes, 13 year olds can be very smart - mine is. Dad is a manipulator - and she sees it and knows it.

And fyi - Dad has yet to return kiddo's calls. Since Tuesday night. And she has left 3 messages.

I do whatever I can to keep kiddos out of the middle. I don't monitor calls or emails or texts between dad and kiddos. That's between them.

I wasn't "crowing over how clever she is." I was proud of her for speaking up for what she wanted, and for making a good point to her father.


LdiJ - thank you again for defending me and my parenting.

I was taught, as a child, to stand up for what I wanted and to make a rational and logical argument for what I wanted. I taught my child to do the same, and I will probably help teach my grandchild to do the same as well. That is what your daughter did. I don't see that as being disrespectful at all.

Did I always get what I wanted? Absolutely not. However I certainly believe that it has helped me as an adult to present myself better and to marshall those same kinds of rational and logical arguments in all kinds of areas of life.

 

[BalloonGirl]

Interesting - that's not how you explained it the first time. And sorry... while it's good for kids to be able to express their opinions, they also need to be able to do so in a respectful and mature manner. Especially to their elders. "You think about that before you call back" is neither.

Ya know... Like I said before - I'm not getting any of Christmas with my kids. So we'll celebrate another time. In all the years their father and I have been divorced, "that's what the order says" has never been uttered to them. My ex is hardly parent of the year, but at least he does abide by that. The most my kids have heard is "that's what works best for your dad/mom and I at this point." Sure, they've probably put two and two together, and that's okay. They appreciate never having been put in the position of having to either choose between us, or to have to advocate for one of us.

Um... no where did I say I told kiddos the schedule. I said oldest daughter heard it - from her sisters.

If they say to me "Dad said the decree says ....." I don't lie to them. Dad's pulled out the decree and showed it to them.

How do you know what her tone was on the phone? I am surprised that everyone, with the exception of LdiJ, assumes that she was disrespectful.

 

[Ohiogal]

Interesting - that's not how you explained it the first time. And sorry... while it's good for kids to be able to express their opinions, they also need to be able to do so in a respectful and mature manner. Especially to their elders. "You think about that before you call back" is neither.

Ya know... Like I said before - I'm not getting any of Christmas with my kids. So we'll celebrate another time. In all the years their father and I have been divorced, "that's what the order says" has never been uttered to them. My ex is hardly parent of the year, but at least he does abide by that. The most my kids have heard is "that's what works best for your dad/mom and I at this point." Sure, they've probably put two and two together, and that's okay. They appreciate never having been put in the position of having to either choose between us, or to have to advocate for one of us.

Love the bolded. Children should NEVEr be advocating for one parent or the other. They should NEVER be allowed in that position. That is where the craptastic parenting came in quite frankly.

 

[Ohiogal]

Um... no where did I say I told kiddos the schedule. I said oldest daughter heard it - from her sisters.

If they say to me "Dad said the decree says ....." I don't lie to them. Dad's pulled out the decree and showed it to them.

How do you know what her tone was on the phone? I am surprised that everyone, with the exception of LdiJ, assumes that she was disrespectful.

Certain CONVERSATIONS are quite frankly disrespectful to be had between a child and a parent. Children should NOT be lecturing their parents regarding parenting time nor parenting choices overall.

 

[BalloonGirl]

I was taught, as a child, to stand up for what I wanted and to make a rational and logical argument for what I wanted. I taught my child to do the same, and I will probably help teach my grandchild to do the same as well. That is what your daughter did. I don't see that as being disrespectful at all.

Did I always get what I wanted? Absolutely not. However I certainly believe that it has helped me as an adult to present myself better and to marshall those same kinds of rational and logical arguments in all kinds of areas of life.

That is one of my goals with kiddos.

Stealth - I'm sorry you're not having time with your kids on Christmas, and am happy that you have found what works for you and the kids. I would appreciate it if you would stop assuming my daughter was disrespectful. You don't know her, you don't know what her tone or words were, you are making an assumption that she was impolite.

Words have a myriad of meanings depending on their tone, it is most certainly possible to say ""Did Mom force you to follow the decree on Thanksgiving, or did she let us have way more time with you than the decree said? Just think about that before you call us back" without being nasty or disrespectful. When you have met my daughter and spent time with her, then you can judge her behavior for yourself.

I think it's important for you to realize that the kids aren't advocating for ME. The oldest tends to be the spokesperson for the 3 of them - and she is advocating for what THE KIDS WANT.



I have not asked Dad for more time on Christmas. I haven't said a word to the kiddos about being disappointed. THEY are sad and disappointed. They are speaking up for what THEY want.

All I did was ask, in my OP, whether I was reading the decree correctly.

 

[Ohiogal]

That is one of my goals with kiddos.

Stealth - I'm sorry you're not having time with your kids on Christmas, and am happy that you have found what works for you and the kids. I would appreciate it if you would stop assuming my daughter was disrespectful. You don't know her, you don't know what her tone or words were, you are making an assumption that she was impolite.

Words have a myriad of meanings depending on their tone, it is most certainly possible to say ""Did Mom force you to follow the decree on Thanksgiving, or did she let us have way more time with you than the decree said? Just think about that before you call us back" without being nasty or disrespectful. When you have met my daughter and spent time with her, then you can judge her behavior for yourself.

I think it's important for you to realize that the kids aren't advocating for ME. The oldest tends to be the spokesperson for the 3 of them - and she is advocating for what THE KIDS WANT.



I have not asked Dad for more time on Christmas. I haven't said a word to the kiddos about being disappointed. THEY are sad and disappointed. They are speaking up for what THEY want.

All I did was ask, in my OP, whether I was reading the decree correctly.

Great excuses. Do what you want and see where it goes.

 

[BalloonGirl]

Love the bolded. Children should NEVEr be advocating for one parent or the other. They should NEVER be allowed in that position. That is where the craptastic parenting came in quite frankly.

How about advocating for what THEY want?

Aren't they entitled to speak up and say, "hey dad (or mom, or grandma, or friend or...) this is what we would like, can we make a compromise?"

Or do you think children should be seen and not heard?

It is my belief they have the right to speak up for what they want.

They're advocating for themselves, for what THEY WANT. They are not advocating for me.

And I think it is good parenting to teach children to speak up for what they want. They know they don't always get their way, but they should always have the right to ask for what they want. Respectfully and politely, of course.

 

[BalloonGirl]

Certain CONVERSATIONS are quite frankly disrespectful to be had between a child and a parent. Children should NOT be lecturing their parents regarding parenting time nor parenting choices overall.

Again... you're assuming she was disrespectful in her tone and questions.

 

[BalloonGirl]

Great excuses. Do what you want and see where it goes.

I'm not doing anything.

I haven't asked for more time, nor have I encouraged my kids to do anything.

They have the right to speak for themselves.

Sorry, we are going to disagree on this.

 

[stealth2]

Again... you're assuming she was disrespectful in her tone and questions.

Nope - I'm going by the words YOU say she used. Frankly, I would never talk to MY parents that way, and I'm far from 15. My oldest once sent an email to his father that was, IMO, disrespectful and rude. I told him that was my impression, and while I would not disrespect him by invalidating his opinions, I would expect him to apologize to his father for his tone and advise him to consider how his words come across prior to hitting the send button in the future.

 

[BalloonGirl]

Nope - I'm going by the words YOU say she used.

And I will again state that WORDS have many meanings depending on the tone used.

I can say "Thank you," and mean it exactly as it states.

Or it can be sarcastic and rude.

"Did Mom force you to follow the decree on Thanksgiving, or did she let us have way more time with you than the decree said? Just think about that before you call us back" - as she related her message to me - was said in a very plaintive tone, as though asking him nicely to consider all aspects.

Could it have been rude and disrespectful? Absolutely. Do I believe my dd that how she relayed it to me was indeed how she said it?

Yep.

And as much as I drill being respectful into my children - they do occasionally disrespect their father, and their mother. They are kids, and they push limits all the time. When I catch it, I stop it, and require apologies.

And I wonder, just how respectful do you think is dad being of them and their wishes? He hasn't even returned their phone calls.... or emails... or texts...


Treat others as you would like to be treated, right?

Peace.

 

[haiku]

tone or not, THE WORDS themselves clearly sound like your daughter is trying to bully her father into giving up their time together. I think its awful, and my child would be taken to task for it.

 

[stealth2]

And as much as I drill being respectful into my children - they do occasionally disrespect their father, and their mother. They are kids, and they push limits all the time. When I catch it, I stop it, and require apologies.

Uh huh. I have some ocean front property in Arizona, if anyone's buying.

And I wonder, just how respectful do you think is dad being of them and their wishes? He hasn't even returned their phone calls.... or emails... or texts...

Honestly? If one of my kids said that to me? (because I'm not buying the "plaintive tone" she used to relate it to you - uuhh... she knows she'd be taken to task otherwise, according to you) I'd tell him/her that I would talk to them when they were able to talk respectfully - and to call me when they were ready to do so. Funny... you mentioned a couple of phone calls, and now they've morphed into calls, emails and texts. Is sky-writing next?

 

[LdiJ]

tone or not, THE WORDS themselves clearly sound like your daughter is trying to bully her father into giving up their time together. I think its awful, and my child would be taken to task for it.

I would like to point out though that dad is insisting on his regular weekend visitation starting at 5PM on Christmas Day, which is the only reason why the kids are only getting 4 1/2 hours with mom for Christmas. On dad's years when he gets the kids from noon on Christmas Day, he gets until 8AM the next morning.

I am not sure a judge would side with dad on this one, even though all of the rest of you believe so.
Insisting on starting your regular weekend on the day of the holiday itself, would seem to me to be interfearing with the holiday.

 

[haiku]

I would like to point out though that dad is insisting on his regular weekend visitation starting at 5PM on Christmas Day, which is the only reason why the kids are only getting 4 1/2 hours with mom for Christmas. On dad's years when he gets the kids from noon on Christmas Day, he gets until 8AM the next morning.

I am not sure a judge would side with dad on this one, even though all of the rest of you believe so.
Insisting on starting your regular weekend on the day of the holiday itself, would seem to me to be interfearing with the holiday.

And this has what to do with my opinion that the daughter was way out of line?

I am looking at our New Hampshire parenting plan, the legal form which all parties in the state are obligated to fill out, and no where does it state that holidays supercede the regular visitation schedule. Actually from the looks of things, the noon to 4 pm day switch must be pretty standard as that was my husband initial agreement too, before both parties figured out that was going to be a PITA due to distance and went back and modified to something that was easier but still allowed both parents to enjoy the holiday....

Therefore I do believe (though I lost the crystal ball) from our years experience dealing with this sort of issue in a NH court, that dads version is likely theone the judge will go with.