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Is joint legal custody for real?
- Thread starter daddenied
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My 2nd child just turned 14. He is the son I went to LV running around to find out where he was playing amongst hundreds of schools from around the country, and although missed them all was able to spend a short period of time with him. My ex refused to give me the itinerary information until after the tournament was over. CO is still the same...we share joint legal and physical custody. In 2 weeks we are back in court as I petitioned the court to amend our July 1st order naming CYS as the agency for therapeutic visits for my children and I. I've been going up every Sat. to visit with the therapist I found and asked her to have the boys there since her choice of agency cannot accomodate us, but she continues to refuse. The last actual visitation I had with my sons was in January. This week a paralegal service is filing the contempt motion for me and I am awaiting the copies and court date, hopefully by the end of the week I will know. I've heard from my children once in the last 7 months...they started school last Monday and I think that's it...I am sure I've posted the whole tale somewhere. I feel like all my children have been so influenced by their mother's hate and jealousy that I have moved on that they are stuck in the middle...many days I still believe they love me, then I can't help, but feel betrayed and hurt by their lack of communication with me. Cards, birthday gifts, emails and letters have been sent...they have never been responded to.casa said:Child's age? CO information? What is going on with this other child...why contact problems with both/all of them?
REPLY FROM THERAPIST-continued-
What the heck does all this mean? Is she saying I have no right to the records of my own son!? Please help me understand. Here is an excerpt from my first letter sent to her, dated July 5th, after the hearing in response to her letter she wrote on behalf of my ex's defense:
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My concerns with your letter are as follows:
1. Since Nov. 2002, I have shared JOINT legal and physical custody of (child's name). After our last mediation on June 23, 2005 and our hearing on July 1, 2005, I still share JOINT legal and physical custody of him and his brothers.
2. I should always be informed if (child's name) or any of my children is going to receive any medical or psychological care, if not by their mother, by the provider…he is a minor. I never heard from either of you of these counseling sessions prior to or during his counseling. In fact, (my ex's name) mentioned in court on Fri. July 1st that (child's name) is still today receiving counseling, which I do not believe is the truth, unless it was misunderstood or misstated. According to your letter included in her response, the last time you saw (child's name) was in Apr. 2004.
3. I have the right to approve or not approve of such care as our son was 12-13 years old while you saw him, according to the dates on your letter.
4. Did my ex-wife receive reports of these counseling sessions? Or, did she simply receive the letter I received from her on June 21, 2005? According to the state of California law, it is a license violation if you saw our son in supposed “counseling” or therapy and gave reports of these sessions to my ex-wife, other than what this letter to the courts state.
5. Did you not think to contact me, (child's name) father, to include me in supposed “necessary” counseling, especially with the reasons you state in your letter he was so distressed? I would’ve been more than open to the idea of counseling if in fact (child's name) needed it and I or my divorce from his mother was part of the reason.
6. Were you told by my ex-wife that the counseling was court-ordered? If so, it was NOT at the time.
7. Were you told by my ex-wife that she had sole custody of (child's name) ? I fully insure him medically and never received a bill from you or my ex-wife for these services. I just contacted my insurance company last week and was told that they paid for only 5 visits of counseling for (child's name) in 2003 although he is covered for 22 sessions a year…the # of times your letter claims he was in session with you. I find that odd and asked Health Net to do an audit to research their records in case the error was on their end. I am currently waiting on all copies of bill/claims from my insurance company.
8. Were you aware that my ex-wife was claiming (Child's name) suicidal at the time he entered into counseling? Again, I was not aware. The first time anything of the sort was mentioned was months after you supposedly stopped seeing him.
9. What reason were you given that (child's name) needed counseling? I ask, because your letter to the courts or “to whom it may concern” is very vague. All it tells me is that (child's name) entered counseling due to “his distress and anxiety regarding the conflict and separation between his parents” and that he “spoke frequently about his anxiety and discomfort when visiting his father”. I am not sure you know this, but from Apr.-Oct. 2003, all of my visitation with (child's name) except for 2 visits in the summer of 2003 were all done in Fresno in the comfort of his own home-his mother’s home. All those visits included their mother. I visited him and his brothers there and stayed there during the weekends I came up. In Dec. 2003, (child's name) and his brothers spent the 2nd week of Christmas break with me and all of us had the flu and spent almost the entire break in bed at my parents home, being nursed by my mother. I believe I saw (child's name) on maybe 3 more visits between Christmas 2003 and the date of your letter Apr. 2004. I find it interesting that he spoke frequently of his discomfort visiting me, when he had visited me in LA County only 4 or 5 times in the entire year you saw him in counseling. Again, all other visits were done in his own home in Fresno with his mother present.
10. Did you find it odd that his mother never informed me of this needed counseling? Or, that she never mentioned he was not comfortable with me visiting him there or him at my place?
I am requesting a copy of any/all records of your counseling sessions with (child's name) that you are able by law to furnish me with. Whatever cannot be given to me will be subpoenaed in the near future. I am also requesting that you inform me of any/all information you have provided my ex-wife regarding (child's name) sessions, whether it was done verbally or in writing. I am also requesting copies of invoices or bills referencing these visits for my records. I appreciate your prompt request to this matter and thank you in advance.
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I was frustrated to receive this letter she just sent and none of my concerns or questions were acknowledged in her reply...just that she could not release his records. I want to call and/or write her again and direct her to this first letter I wrote and ask again that she answer my questions and furnish me with what I need...will I have to subpoena the records or is the law on her side?
PLEASE HELP!!!
What the heck does all this mean? Is she saying I have no right to the records of my own son!? Please help me understand. Here is an excerpt from my first letter sent to her, dated July 5th, after the hearing in response to her letter she wrote on behalf of my ex's defense:
---------------------------------------------------------------
My concerns with your letter are as follows:
1. Since Nov. 2002, I have shared JOINT legal and physical custody of (child's name). After our last mediation on June 23, 2005 and our hearing on July 1, 2005, I still share JOINT legal and physical custody of him and his brothers.
2. I should always be informed if (child's name) or any of my children is going to receive any medical or psychological care, if not by their mother, by the provider…he is a minor. I never heard from either of you of these counseling sessions prior to or during his counseling. In fact, (my ex's name) mentioned in court on Fri. July 1st that (child's name) is still today receiving counseling, which I do not believe is the truth, unless it was misunderstood or misstated. According to your letter included in her response, the last time you saw (child's name) was in Apr. 2004.
3. I have the right to approve or not approve of such care as our son was 12-13 years old while you saw him, according to the dates on your letter.
4. Did my ex-wife receive reports of these counseling sessions? Or, did she simply receive the letter I received from her on June 21, 2005? According to the state of California law, it is a license violation if you saw our son in supposed “counseling” or therapy and gave reports of these sessions to my ex-wife, other than what this letter to the courts state.
5. Did you not think to contact me, (child's name) father, to include me in supposed “necessary” counseling, especially with the reasons you state in your letter he was so distressed? I would’ve been more than open to the idea of counseling if in fact (child's name) needed it and I or my divorce from his mother was part of the reason.
6. Were you told by my ex-wife that the counseling was court-ordered? If so, it was NOT at the time.
7. Were you told by my ex-wife that she had sole custody of (child's name) ? I fully insure him medically and never received a bill from you or my ex-wife for these services. I just contacted my insurance company last week and was told that they paid for only 5 visits of counseling for (child's name) in 2003 although he is covered for 22 sessions a year…the # of times your letter claims he was in session with you. I find that odd and asked Health Net to do an audit to research their records in case the error was on their end. I am currently waiting on all copies of bill/claims from my insurance company.
8. Were you aware that my ex-wife was claiming (Child's name) suicidal at the time he entered into counseling? Again, I was not aware. The first time anything of the sort was mentioned was months after you supposedly stopped seeing him.
9. What reason were you given that (child's name) needed counseling? I ask, because your letter to the courts or “to whom it may concern” is very vague. All it tells me is that (child's name) entered counseling due to “his distress and anxiety regarding the conflict and separation between his parents” and that he “spoke frequently about his anxiety and discomfort when visiting his father”. I am not sure you know this, but from Apr.-Oct. 2003, all of my visitation with (child's name) except for 2 visits in the summer of 2003 were all done in Fresno in the comfort of his own home-his mother’s home. All those visits included their mother. I visited him and his brothers there and stayed there during the weekends I came up. In Dec. 2003, (child's name) and his brothers spent the 2nd week of Christmas break with me and all of us had the flu and spent almost the entire break in bed at my parents home, being nursed by my mother. I believe I saw (child's name) on maybe 3 more visits between Christmas 2003 and the date of your letter Apr. 2004. I find it interesting that he spoke frequently of his discomfort visiting me, when he had visited me in LA County only 4 or 5 times in the entire year you saw him in counseling. Again, all other visits were done in his own home in Fresno with his mother present.
10. Did you find it odd that his mother never informed me of this needed counseling? Or, that she never mentioned he was not comfortable with me visiting him there or him at my place?
I am requesting a copy of any/all records of your counseling sessions with (child's name) that you are able by law to furnish me with. Whatever cannot be given to me will be subpoenaed in the near future. I am also requesting that you inform me of any/all information you have provided my ex-wife regarding (child's name) sessions, whether it was done verbally or in writing. I am also requesting copies of invoices or bills referencing these visits for my records. I appreciate your prompt request to this matter and thank you in advance.
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I was frustrated to receive this letter she just sent and none of my concerns or questions were acknowledged in her reply...just that she could not release his records. I want to call and/or write her again and direct her to this first letter I wrote and ask again that she answer my questions and furnish me with what I need...will I have to subpoena the records or is the law on her side?
PLEASE HELP!!!
Hi Met, Casa and all...
I got a message from my attorney' s office, or my ex-attorney's secretary yesterday saying that they sent me everything they had and if I wanted minutes from the supposed Feb. hearing I would have to request them myself. The local bar sent me some paperwork to fill out, which I did but said to make another attempt to ask before filing it with them. So, that is that for now.
I'm still not sure what to do about the therapist's letter I posted the other night. I know you directed me to subpoena them, but does that law protect her from me even doing that?
I got a message from my attorney' s office, or my ex-attorney's secretary yesterday saying that they sent me everything they had and if I wanted minutes from the supposed Feb. hearing I would have to request them myself. The local bar sent me some paperwork to fill out, which I did but said to make another attempt to ask before filing it with them. So, that is that for now.
I'm still not sure what to do about the therapist's letter I posted the other night. I know you directed me to subpoena them, but does that law protect her from me even doing that?
Sorry I wasn't online much yesterday and missed this one.
Follow through with the complaints to the state and local bar associations.
The therapist is not following the law so start preparing a complaint.
Under Health and Safety Code 123115 only a (1&2) apply to you as parent, the rest apply to the patient, here is the critical point, since mom submitted the therapist letter to the court and requested court ordered therapy more than 1.5 years following termination of therapy, she has made psychological damages a part of her claim and thus the records are subject to subpoena and there is no priviledge. You can do one or both ask the paralegal to subpoena the records or sign a waiver and have them forwarded to the current therapist which can be done under section b (2). I suggest doing both before filing a complaint with the BBS.
123115. Representative of minor; mental health records
a) the representative of a minor shall not be entitled to inspect or obtain copies of the minor's patient records in either of the following circumstances:
(1) with respect to which the minor has a right of inspection under section 123110.
(2) where the healthcare provider determines that access to the patient records requested by the representative would have a detrimental effect on the providers professional relationship with the minor patient
.........The therapeutic relationship was ended more than 1 year ago, if the record contained any question of harm, this would have been noted in the therapists communications with Health Net when they were authorized to provide care, thus the short term visits authorized and the fact that no others were requested suggests that there would be no detrimental effect.
or the minor's physical safety or psychological well being.
....... If this was a threat, why was therapy terminated? However mom has brought these issues to the court's attention and since mom has interfered with the court orders, there may indeed be some threat to the child physical and psychological safety while in the care of the mother since she has intentionally isolated them. Aiding and abetting without documentation is a serious issue.
.......You might seek counsel with a PI or med-mal attorney re lawsuyuit against the therapist when you have a better idea what has happened.
The decision of the healthcare provider as to whether or not a minor's records are available for inspection under this section shall not attach any liability to the provider unless the decision is found to be in bad faith.
........The actions of the therapist would represent bad faith another cause of action for a potential lawsuit against the therapist. This seciton does not protect the therapist from a lawsuit in your case, or from complaint to BBS.
School has started, have you got access to their records etc yet?
Follow through with the complaints to the state and local bar associations.
The therapist is not following the law so start preparing a complaint.
Under Health and Safety Code 123115 only a (1&2) apply to you as parent, the rest apply to the patient, here is the critical point, since mom submitted the therapist letter to the court and requested court ordered therapy more than 1.5 years following termination of therapy, she has made psychological damages a part of her claim and thus the records are subject to subpoena and there is no priviledge. You can do one or both ask the paralegal to subpoena the records or sign a waiver and have them forwarded to the current therapist which can be done under section b (2). I suggest doing both before filing a complaint with the BBS.
123115. Representative of minor; mental health records
a) the representative of a minor shall not be entitled to inspect or obtain copies of the minor's patient records in either of the following circumstances:
(1) with respect to which the minor has a right of inspection under section 123110.
(2) where the healthcare provider determines that access to the patient records requested by the representative would have a detrimental effect on the providers professional relationship with the minor patient
.........The therapeutic relationship was ended more than 1 year ago, if the record contained any question of harm, this would have been noted in the therapists communications with Health Net when they were authorized to provide care, thus the short term visits authorized and the fact that no others were requested suggests that there would be no detrimental effect.
or the minor's physical safety or psychological well being.
....... If this was a threat, why was therapy terminated? However mom has brought these issues to the court's attention and since mom has interfered with the court orders, there may indeed be some threat to the child physical and psychological safety while in the care of the mother since she has intentionally isolated them. Aiding and abetting without documentation is a serious issue.
.......You might seek counsel with a PI or med-mal attorney re lawsuyuit against the therapist when you have a better idea what has happened.
The decision of the healthcare provider as to whether or not a minor's records are available for inspection under this section shall not attach any liability to the provider unless the decision is found to be in bad faith.
........The actions of the therapist would represent bad faith another cause of action for a potential lawsuit against the therapist. This seciton does not protect the therapist from a lawsuit in your case, or from complaint to BBS.
School has started, have you got access to their records etc yet?
I don't have time today or tomorrow to start preparing my complaint, but I will definited if not tomorrow afternoon when I might have a window of time, definitely Tuesday morning speak to the paralegal about this whole deal with the therapist. I thought only 1 and 2 applied, but didn't want to assume. Also, I received something in the mail from my youngest child's school and show that I am on the list as his father, etc...but the intermediate school that my next child goes to, I have still to get word from them. The last email I got from them said this:rmet4nzkx said:
"I'm sorry that we had a communication problem involving 8th grade appreciation. We had discussed school records, report cards, etc. But to tell you the truth I would not have even thought about any activities as a
a forward to you. I say this for two reasons: 1). Despite your difficulties with your ex-wife wife and your current divorce I do feel that some responsibility exsists for your wife and/or son to share with you information about activities on our campus. We can not possibly keep up
with such notifications given the numerous activities and the numerous split families and family situations. We can, and do make note of things like report cards, attendance, etc. when whole school reports are generated. As (name of secretary) had mentioned all report cards should go out this week. 2). All activities and a calendar are posted on our website for such notification. I believe I mentioned that to you early on when you first requested information be sent to you.
While I understand your disappointment in missing this years appreciation, it just is not feasible that we could notify all parents who are, for whatever reason, away from our school. As your son moves on to (name of high school)
next year, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with their website and calendar information online so that equally important events are not missed.
With regret,
This letter came from the principal after I found out in the summer I had missed a very important function for my son who was moving on to high school this year. I have not heard anything from them since another child started 2 weeks ago and am anxious, but don't want to pester them. The athletic director from the high school where the other 2 are sent me contact information for the coaches, but I have heard nothing back from the registrar's office as to whether I am listed in their records, but will stay on them.
My hearing is in 13 days to have the courts change the therapeutic site to the agency I found. I was also able to get in writing from all the other therapists listed on my health insurance coverage that they do not offer Saturday service or therapeutic supervised visitation at all-I thought it would help...that's what the paralegal said. I just want to cover all of my bases that day so my ex-wife has no room to say anything, not that I expect anything she said would be valid, but nothing surprises me any more. I'll keep you updated. Thanks!
Keep it up, and get the supoena as well as sign a release so the therapist can request the records. Expect the therapist to stall at this point. You might want to call CAMFT to see if she is a member, they may have some assistance through their ethics office if she is, also another complaint possibility, but the BBS is the licensing org.
ADDRESS: California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists
7901 Raytheon Road
San Diego, CA 92111-1606
PHONE: (858) 29-CAMFT (292-2638)
FAX: (858) 292-2666
WEB SITE: http://www.camft.org
Contact the school district, explain the problem that mom has intentionally isolated the children and falsified records so as to keep you from obtaining info about your children and as a direct result, the coaches and teachers have not only refused to give you the information or communicate with you even though you have joint custody, but have also removed your child from the state without your knowledge or consent, and refused to inform you where your child was, essentially kidnapping. Their excuses are not sufficient.
ADDRESS: California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists
7901 Raytheon Road
San Diego, CA 92111-1606
PHONE: (858) 29-CAMFT (292-2638)
FAX: (858) 292-2666
WEB SITE: http://www.camft.org
Contact the school district, explain the problem that mom has intentionally isolated the children and falsified records so as to keep you from obtaining info about your children and as a direct result, the coaches and teachers have not only refused to give you the information or communicate with you even though you have joint custody, but have also removed your child from the state without your knowledge or consent, and refused to inform you where your child was, essentially kidnapping. Their excuses are not sufficient.
Hi Miss Met,rmet4nzkx said:
Just wanted to make sure I was doing this right? When the courts change the agency to the therapist I found (Yes, I am being very optimistic!
) I will be able to as the new therapist to request the records from the therapist who saw my son without consent right? I do this with a signed waiver? If the therapist is still refusing citing the same laws she cited in her letter to me, then I subponea? I went through a copy of all of the past posts you've helped me with and saw this:The new therapist can also request the records with your signed waiver, once the therapy order is amended, attach a copy of that. If not, then subponea the records. Wait untill after that to file a complaint.
I will wait until then to file a complaint against her. I agree...I think my ex and this therapist are friends and if not, something is definitely fishy. My insurance said they paid for 5 session in the past, but there were no more claims submitted as my son was eligible for 17 more sessions. I don't know if I mentioned this, but when I said this to my ex, she insisted that she did not go through my insurance...(WHY? I have no idea!) and she stated that she tried to go through her insurance who told her they would not cover our son's visit to her therapist friend because it was for a pre-existing condition. Hmmm....WHAT was pre-existing, I asked her in email (HER preferred choice of communication with me) and she refuses to answer that question. In fact, her hostile reply was that I should feel lucky that she did not send me a bill for my portion which would've been $450 and 1/2 of 22 co-payments. Hmmm...It is hard for me to believe that she paid $900 out of pocket and for all 22 session co=payments, when during the time she claims our child saw this therapist, we were on speaking terms and spoke quite often about our children, and I distinctly remember her always complaining about how expensive it was for her to carry her own medical insurance at work and how grateful she was that I had full coverage for our children. ???? Anyway, that's neither here nor there, but I do believe this therapist will try to stall and do whatever it is to hide the truth, IF she even saw my child for 22 sessions. I also agree that if it were so dire that he needed these services and detrimental, WHY I was not contacted. Hmmm... Anyway, sorry for being so lengthy, but I did have another real question...
With my hearing to amend the last order coming up on Sept. 14th, when should I hear a response from my ex? I have not received anything in the mail or been served by her and according to the clerk's office, she has not filed a response. ISn't there a time frame of when she has to file a response so that I can get it before the hearing? Just wondering as I am curious what her reply will state. Nothing, at this point and time shocks me.
Can I file a motion to have this changed or added?
Thank you very much for faxing this to me. I read it and it seems very reasonable and fair. Does anyone know if I can ask the courts to have it be our agreement or must I go to mediation with my ex AGAIN to ask for this type of joint custody arrangement in our agreement?
kcs00 said:
Thank you very much for faxing this to me. I read it and it seems very reasonable and fair. Does anyone know if I can ask the courts to have it be our agreement or must I go to mediation with my ex AGAIN to ask for this type of joint custody arrangement in our agreement?
Anxious
I was just anxious. When should I be worried if I have not been served or receive a response from my motion for my Sept. 14th hearing. Does my ex have to respond to it within a certain number of days? If so, what happens if she doesnt respond in time? I am worried, because I have had so many surprises and don't want to have anything bad to happen to my case. I feel good about going in on the 14th and requesting from the judge to have the agency changed to the therapist I found 8 weeks ago due to the original place not being able to accomodate us. I can't see how my ex will get out of it as she continues to insist to use the originally ordered place. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows when I should have a response from her by.
Thanks!
I was just anxious. When should I be worried if I have not been served or receive a response from my motion for my Sept. 14th hearing. Does my ex have to respond to it within a certain number of days? If so, what happens if she doesnt respond in time? I am worried, because I have had so many surprises and don't want to have anything bad to happen to my case. I feel good about going in on the 14th and requesting from the judge to have the agency changed to the therapist I found 8 weeks ago due to the original place not being able to accomodate us. I can't see how my ex will get out of it as she continues to insist to use the originally ordered place. Anyway, just wondering if anyone knows when I should have a response from her by.
Thanks!
Thanks CASA! I needed the encouragement. I've missed all of their birthdays (except one) this year, Valentines, Easter, Spring Break, Fathers Day, anything special going on in their life. It's pretty discouraging. I sometimes wonder if all of this mess I have gone through all year and part of last year is the reason many other NCP's (primarily dads I know) just give up.casa said:Look up your states Family Code. You will learn so much...and look up the county's court website and read it also. Find out the particular rules of the court and filings etc.
Hang in there~ She can't keep those kids from you forever
I don't want to give up, but I don't know how much longer I can take the disappointment and the unfairness that seems to linger in the Fresno County family law system. Thank you again. I'll look those codes up right now.- Status
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